Reduced Speed Limits

Pebble
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Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pebble » 22 Aug 2020, 7:11pm

Am I dreaming
https://www.itv.com/news/border/2020-08 ... d-to-20mph

does "council-adopted 30mph roads in the Borders" actually mean all the 30mph roads (apart from the trunk roads) or is there a trick in that phrase that will just mean a few housing schemes?

I rarely cycle in my local town due to the fast and often idiotic driving. If this is true then it could be a game changer. I doubt anyone will be driving at 20 but if they start going just under 30 instead of just under 40 then that would be a significant change for the good.


and what is it with the police
Police Scotland will likely follow their 2013 policy and they will not carry out enforcement where there is a belief that compliance cannot be reached

presumably this is the reason they don't tackle speeding and mobile phone use now. too many people doing it!

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mjr
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby mjr » 22 Aug 2020, 7:30pm

Pebble wrote:and what is it with the police
Police Scotland will likely follow their 2013 policy and they will not carry out enforcement where there is a belief that compliance cannot be reached

presumably this is the reason they don't tackle speeding and mobile phone use now. too many people doing it!

Yes. I've recently seen the figures from the speed detector on the back road in the next village, which connects the main road to itself via a load of houses - no reason anyone except resident/shop access will be going along it. Over 2'000 people exceeded the 30mph limit in a month. 155 exceeded 45mph!

The minimum speeding fine is £100 now, so in theory, that's over £200'000 in fines not collected in one small village in one month because the detector is connected to a flashing sign not a camera.

So in a year, that could be £2.4m in fines not collected.

There's about 43,000 villages in the UK, so maybe £103bn is going begging each year, or roughly a typical recent year's UK national budget deficit! We could balance the national books just by enforcing speed limits in residential areas!

(OK, some flaws in that argument: many of those 2,000 will be repeat offenders doing it twice a day or more and most would stop after the first few fines; if speed limits were enforced, more people would obey them; maybe not all villages have drivers as crap as the one I know about; and probably tons more.)
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Bmblbzzz » 22 Aug 2020, 8:31pm

“As the project progresses there will be monitoring and evaluation and where possible and realistic, traffic calming can be introduced as part of the Spaces for People funding or the speed limit revised back to 30mph.”

That's not so good. It sounds as if you'll end up with some places or roads at 20 with bumps and/or chicanes and others at 30. IME 20mph limits work best for everyone when there are no bumps etc - these tend to mess things up for cyclists, and if they're the speed pillow type (rather than bumps across the entire width of the carriageway) they encourage competitive space-grabbing.

No one will drive at 20mph anyway, but most will drive at 29 rather than 39, and that is a significant gain.

thirdcrank
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby thirdcrank » 22 Aug 2020, 8:47pm

I've no idea about Scotland but I think there's going to be pressure in E&W led by Highways England for highway authorities to be given powers to install and operate speed detection cameras including issuing fixed penalties independently of the police.

The current system dates from a bygone age of police traffic enforcement. If this did happen, I think that effective, camera-based enforcement would grow very quickly. Local authorities are indifferent to allegations about so-called cash cows (think about yellow line parking, bus lane etc enforcement) and on the contrary will exploit every possible income stream.

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby tim-b » 23 Aug 2020, 6:08am

~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Cyril Haearn » 23 Aug 2020, 7:34am

Plus One, anything that reduces speed is welcome
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Syd
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Syd » 23 Aug 2020, 7:51am

Edinburgh has reduced many roads to 20mph and plans to continue to do so. I have also seen evidence of Police Scotland enforcing the speed limit in such areas, although it does seem to be a case of ‘educating drivers’ rather than fines and points.

drossall
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby drossall » 23 Aug 2020, 10:59pm

I'm not sure I really buy the idea of cameras being put up as an income stream. I know little about it, but technical things often turn out to be enormously more costly to run than people assume. And I'm prepared to allow genuine interest in protecting people.

Not to mention that payment is entirely voluntary, to the point of being a donation given entirely by the choice of the donor, who has to take active steps even to be asked to make a contribution.

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby pwa » 23 Aug 2020, 11:23pm

For a 20 limit you don't need anything as contentious and maintenance intensive as cameras. You just need street calming. Bumps and wiggles. I'm sure it could be done in a cycle friendly way. And I do know of places where it keeps speeds down to 20ish or less. Cameras slow things down for 100m or so, but traffic calming can work for the entire 20mph zone.

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pete Owens » 24 Aug 2020, 1:30am

thirdcrank wrote:I've no idea about Scotland but I think there's going to be pressure in E&W led by Highways England for highway authorities to be given powers to install and operate speed detection cameras including issuing fixed penalties independently of the police.

Yes, I think this would be a game changer - the obstructiveness of the police is the main obstacle to reducing speed limits.

However, it would be critical that this still resulted in points on licences. Speeders might resent paying the occasional fine - but would consider it an occupational hazard - the threat of losing your licence is a much greater deterrent.

Jdsk
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Jdsk » 24 Aug 2020, 9:11am

pwa wrote:For a 20 limit you don't need anything as contentious and maintenance intensive as cameras. You just need street calming. Bumps and wiggles. I'm sure it could be done in a cycle friendly way. And I do know of places where it keeps speeds down to 20ish or less. Cameras slow things down for 100m or so, but traffic calming can work for the entire 20mph zone.

Apparently there's a big difference between the evidence around 20 mph speed limits and 20 mph speed zones. Zones using those physical calming measures.

eg RoSPA: "20mph Zones and Speed Limits Factsheet"
https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/drivers/20-mph-zone-factsheet.pdf
which includes:
"Evidence shows that 20mph zones are an effective way of preventing injuries on the road.
There is less experience with 20mph limits although they have generally been positive at reducing traffic speeds. They do not reduce traffic speeds as much as zones."


Jonathan

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Bmblbzzz » 24 Aug 2020, 10:25am

Bristol and some other towns and cities have turned their whole central areas, broadly defined, into 20mph zones without physical calming measures. It works, by and large. For instance, there are some main roads where (due to gradient!) I'm able to keep up 18-20mph. Nobody overtakes. That wasn't the case when the limit was 30.

Humps, chicanes, pinch points etc should be reserved for specific problem sites (and those should probably be looked at in terms of eg geometry and priorities before humps etc) rather than applied everywhere. As soon as you put humps in, you've made the road appear "special" and that creates all sorts of problems both in driver behaviour and for other uses. Modal filtering, however, can work very well by removing most traffic from side roads.

thirdcrank
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby thirdcrank » 24 Aug 2020, 11:32am

While all casualties are obviously regrettable, IMO it does vulnerable road users a disservice to equate casualty counting with safety. A lot of the so-called road safety in the UK is based on frightening pedestrians and cyclists of the road.

fastpedaller
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby fastpedaller » 24 Aug 2020, 12:38pm

pwa wrote:For a 20 limit you don't need anything as contentious and maintenance intensive as cameras. You just need street calming. Bumps and wiggles. I'm sure it could be done in a cycle friendly way. And I do know of places where it keeps speeds down to 20ish or less. Cameras slow things down for 100m or so, but traffic calming can work for the entire 20mph zone.


Humps are horrible things which are very costly. From my observations all they create is more emissions as vehicles speed up between the humps. Education (and good signage) is the real deal. We have a 20MPH stretch of road in town, and whilst driving there I keep below the limit, and othes mostly overtake me (thankfully it is a one way road with 2 lanes! I've even had a young girl drive up behind me and hoot and jesticulate that I should go faster - so it happens in the car as well as the bike :lol: . As an aside, even though I've been going at 23mph sometimes on the bike, the sensor won't light up the 20mph sign :( , but it does with a car..... frontal area, or mass of metal?

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby The utility cyclist » 24 Aug 2020, 6:08pm

Speed restrictors in all motor vehicles retrofitted at drivers expense, lower speed limits pretty much everywhere barring motorways, any roads other than trunk to be maximum of 40mph, trunk roads without a 3m cycle lane adjoined to be reduced to 50mph.
No good trying to catch people after the fact, stop the speeding in its tracks for every single driver, no 10%+x rule, if you're in x zone and put your foot down then the restrictor simply ignores the beg for more speed if you're already at the limit.
This would save tens of billions of tax payers money every single year just on reduced KSIs, never mind the many more families having loved ones come home alive/in one piece!