Reduced Speed Limits

thirdcrank
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby thirdcrank » 26 Aug 2020, 12:28pm

This is one of the things which has changed enormously over the years. Once upon a time, the enforcement of road traffic legislation was a big police priority, before the concept of policing priorities was introduced. Having said that, the ways of enforcing speed limits were cumbersome - either a patrol car following a suspected speeder over a distance or "portable" roadside radar the size of a large sideboard. Neither was ideal for things like 20mph limits. Anyway, afaik, the guidance about consultation with the police was really about the feasibility of enforcing a particular limit.

I'm well-aware that this thread is about Scotland, but as a local example, the Leeds South Easter Urban Motorway (last bit of M1 as was, now part of the M621) was built to lower standards than normal motorways and a 50mph limit was in force from its opening. We only had a couple of miles of this within Leeds but it was constantly patrolled and offenders were prosecuted (no speed awareness courses then.) Long ago now, but I've prosecuted 50 in an afternoon on overtime at Leeds Magistrates' Court. (Bugger the expense.)

Now, it's not a priority so it gets zero attention.

Over the same period, the technology for the enforcement of speed limits has massively advanced and it doesn't need police officers to do it. It's no longer "bugger the expense" so police "chiefs" are reluctant to divert resources to this. ie Opposition is financial, rather than operational.

Taking my example of the Leeds South Eastern Urban Motorway, Highways England should be allowed, nay required, to install sufficient cameras to keep speeds down to the design standard of the road independently of the police. It's a bit of an irony that during recent roadworks, a number of cameras were installed on permanent-looking masts but have been removed following completion of the works.

As I've suggested elsewhere on here, I get the impression that Highways England and possibly others are going to get increased powers in this regard.

Pebble
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pebble » 27 Aug 2020, 7:09pm

Just got an email from one of the councillors - as per the OP the bill has passed.

I am really struggling to believe that all 30mph zones (apart from trunk roads) in the whole of the Scottish Borders are going to have a 20mph speed limit.

People (as in drivers) are going to go absolutely nuts when they learn what is happening.

Jdsk
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Jdsk » 27 Aug 2020, 7:11pm

"Speed limit slashed in 80 Borders towns and villages"
https://news.stv.tv/east-central/speed-limit-slashed-in-80-borders-towns-and-villages

It's an 18 month trial. That article links to a list of the affected areas.

Jonathan

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Bmblbzzz » 27 Aug 2020, 7:49pm

I'm not surprised. There was a similar decision in Wales earlier this summer.

Jdsk
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Jdsk » 27 Aug 2020, 7:51pm

"20mph residential streets speed limit plans backed by Senedd"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53416999

Jonathan

pwa
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby pwa » 27 Aug 2020, 8:42pm

Pebble wrote:People (as in drivers) are going to go absolutely nuts when they learn what is happening.


There hasn't been all that much fuss when 20 limits have been brought in around here. I think most people do see a reason for it.

Pebble
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pebble » 27 Aug 2020, 11:03pm

pwa wrote:
Pebble wrote:People (as in drivers) are going to go absolutely nuts when they learn what is happening.


There hasn't been all that much fuss when 20 limits have been brought in around here. I think most people do see a reason for it.

Likewise here, quite a few roads in housing schemes etc have 20 now and most people see it as good and sensible. However what is coming is a bit OTT (brilliant for me as a cyclist) but we are talking about every single road in the town, wide long arterial routes that already feel very slow and tedious at 30, are now going to be 20mph :D

The reaction is going to be very interesting, at the moment virtually nobody even knows this was proposed, I only found out about it 4 days ago and evryone I have spoke to since are completely clueless

Pete Owens
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pete Owens » 27 Aug 2020, 11:26pm

Pebble wrote:People (as in drivers) are going to go absolutely nuts when they learn what is happening.


It is a mistake to assume that the sort of petrol-head loudmouths that frequent the right wing media are representative of drivers as a whole.

Drivers are also people who live in these places, have children, and want their streets to be safe every bit as much as we do. When other places have implemented 20mph areas they have been hugely popular.

Pete Owens
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pete Owens » 27 Aug 2020, 11:39pm

Is anyone aware of a map where you can view the speedlimits. There used to be a tool on ito world that displayed the open street map speed limits as a colour coded map so you could compare the policies of different places.

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby mjr » 28 Aug 2020, 12:42am

Pete Owens wrote:Is anyone aware of a map where you can view the speedlimits. There used to be a tool on ito world that displayed the open street map speed limits as a colour coded map so you could compare the policies of different places.

https://cyclosm.org shows 20mph and 30kph as light blue, but I don't know anything that shows all speed limits and I'd like one that showed 40mph rural roads. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key ... d#Services has some queries but nothing that reveals 40mph for me.
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pwa
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby pwa » 28 Aug 2020, 8:42am

Pebble wrote:
pwa wrote:
Pebble wrote:People (as in drivers) are going to go absolutely nuts when they learn what is happening.


There hasn't been all that much fuss when 20 limits have been brought in around here. I think most people do see a reason for it.

Likewise here, quite a few roads in housing schemes etc have 20 now and most people see it as good and sensible. However what is coming is a bit OTT (brilliant for me as a cyclist) but we are talking about every single road in the town, wide long arterial routes that already feel very slow and tedious at 30, are now going to be 20mph :D

The reaction is going to be very interesting, at the moment virtually nobody even knows this was proposed, I only found out about it 4 days ago and evryone I have spoke to since are completely clueless

The proposal in Wales, for 20 to be the default speed in residential areas, seems to me to allow for higher limits where it is deemed appropriate, for example on trunk roads. If that is indeed what we end up with, I would broadly welcome that. My own inclination as a driver is already to drive at significantly less than 30 on residential streets that are not main roads. 30 seems too high on most residential streets. Even 20 seems high on some streets.

thirdcrank
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Aug 2020, 9:46am

FWIW, I think this may have a better chance of enforcement at policy level in Scotland than elsewhere, but somebody with local knowledge will have a better idea.

I think that the formation of Police Scotland has brought the most senior officers under more political influence. Lower down the hierarchy, police in Scotland are covering big areas by the standards of the rest of the UK and I suspect there will be loads of backwoodsmen away from places like Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Nigel
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Nigel » 28 Aug 2020, 11:35am

Pebble wrote:Just got an email from one of the councillors - as per the OP the bill has passed.

I am really struggling to believe that all 30mph zones (apart from trunk roads) in the whole of the Scottish Borders are going to have a 20mph speed limit.

People (as in drivers) are going to go absolutely nuts when they learn what is happening.


I too was surprised at the scope - all towns and most villages.

At one level, I think its a good way to try 20mph. There's little doubt/confusion about whether its 20 or not; if its a built up area its 20 (was 30). Whereas a "20 here, 30 there, 40 somewhere else" approach is confusing (particularly when added to the signs buried in an overgrown hedge). It might make evaluation a bit simpler as there is something to look at from all communities.

I agree some of the drivers are going to go nuts on social media about it; probably mid September when the signs start to appear. And its going to make some of the runs into towns very different to drive, even for those trying to be law-abiding.

Top-tip: if your car has cruise control, then likely it also has a speed limiter option. Usually a single button press to work it. I find the speed limiter brilliant in urban areas (and average camera long roadworks); stop worrying about exceeding the speed limit, and I can then just drive to what I can see around me.


thirdcrank wrote:FWIW, I think this may have a better chance of enforcement at policy level in Scotland than elsewhere, but somebody with local knowledge will have a better idea.


I am not expecting much enforcement, other than by some drivers sticking to the new limit forcing those behind to go slower. There are not that many police officers around, and the borders is a big area with relatively few people.


- Nigel

RH20
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby RH20 » 28 Aug 2020, 12:01pm

I am old enough to remember when the green grocer came round with a horse and cart. The butcher had a van, apart from the coal man coming on the street, these, in general were the only vehicles on the street. We as kids played street games, and it was safe. Now it is all about getting from a to b as fast as possible. No one seems to have time any more. Perhaps more twenty mile per hour speed limits might eventually lead to people taking more time and allowing the extra time for travelling to their destination.
Going back to the coal man, I also remember one local coal man being prosecuted for driving too slow, twelve miles per hour. Traffic was held up behind him. Everyone in the area knew him, his defence was “my wagon won’t go any faster”. I think this was in the early eighties, his lorry was from the thirties, and would be carrying 3 tons of coal at a time.
We are far too fixated with speed, what do we do with all the time saved by living a faster pace of life. I’m sure we would all eventually get used to slower speed limits.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Cyril Haearn » 28 Aug 2020, 12:42pm

'lower', not slower?
..
There is a lot of opposition, I just spent a moment looking at a forum for enthusiastic drivers, one of the mortons on there suggested those driving 'too slowly' should be shot
'Wicked sense of humour' again, does anyone think such 'jokes' are acceptable?
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