Reduced Speed Limits

Pebble
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pebble » 24 Aug 2020, 6:39pm

The utility cyclist wrote:Speed restrictors in all motor vehicles retrofitted at drivers expense, lower speed limits pretty much everywhere barring motorways, any roads other than trunk to be maximum of 40mph, trunk roads without a 3m cycle lane adjoined to be reduced to 50mph.
No good trying to catch people after the fact, stop the speeding in its tracks for every single driver, no 10%+x rule, if you're in x zone and put your foot down then the restrictor simply ignores the beg for more speed if you're already at the limit.
This would save tens of billions of tax payers money every single year just on reduced KSIs, never mind the many more families having loved ones come home alive/in one piece!

The technology is already there, we were test driving a car a few weeks back and it knew what the speed limit was for what ever road I was on, it was capable of controlling my speed on adaptive cruise so surely it would be simple enough to limit your speed to whatever the limit was on that road.

I would see it as a Win Win Win
Huge reduction in green house gases
Considerably less accidents, including less destruction of wildlife.
And with the roads feeling much safer, more people would take up cycling which in turn would save the NHS a fortune.

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mjr
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby mjr » 24 Aug 2020, 6:48pm

Pebble wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:No good trying to catch people after the fact, stop the speeding in its tracks for every single driver, no 10%+x rule, if you're in x zone and put your foot down then the restrictor simply ignores the beg for more speed if you're already at the limit. [...]

The technology is already there, we were test driving a car a few weeks back and it knew what the speed limit was for what ever road I was on, it was capable of controlling my speed on adaptive cruise so surely it would be simple enough to limit your speed to whatever the limit was on that road.

Last year I hired a car to move large objects and it had that technology in. Every time I went past a certain car park, it would incorrectly identify the car park's limit sign (which I think was something odd like 5) as applying to the road I was on and beep wildly.

So I think it needs a bit of work before it can be trusted for use without an override.

Also, the basic problem remains that bad drivers will drive badly, modifying their cars if needed, and even if you make such modifications illegal, you might only find out about it and be able to punish them when mopping up the blood, unless you allow them to drive badly, catch them with things like speed cameras, red light cameras and yellow box cameras and come down on them like a ton of bricks before they hurt someone!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Bmblbzzz » 24 Aug 2020, 7:04pm

This technology will be in all new cars in Europe* from 2022.
https://etsc.eu/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa/

Couple it with universal data recorders for better effect (recording - possibly in future regulating - acceleration and steering inputs as well as simple speed).

*Yeah yeah, strictly speaking only the EU, but the European non-EU market is too small for car manufacturers to be worth making special versions. Except possibly Russia.

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mjr
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby mjr » 24 Aug 2020, 7:32pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:This technology will be in all new cars in Europe* from 2022.
https://etsc.eu/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa/

"overridable" so this will only stop the careless, not the reckless. It is absolutely not a substitute for speed control cameras.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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chris_suffolk
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby chris_suffolk » 24 Aug 2020, 7:55pm

Pebble wrote:The technology is already there, we were test driving a car a few weeks back and it knew what the speed limit was for what ever road I was on, it was capable of controlling my speed on adaptive cruise so surely it would be simple enough to limit your speed to whatever the limit was on that road.



Just hope that the technology is better than the (2) sat-navs I have, both of which don't have any idea of the speed limit on many of the small lanes around here. I can happily be in a 30 zone, and it thinks it's 60.

Additionally, what about temporary speed restrictions such as road works, (and after they have been removed and speed goes up), as the sat-nav gets these wrong more often than not. Or will I be compelled to update the database every week, or have the car accept data so it can update itself?

Pebble
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pebble » 24 Aug 2020, 8:24pm

chris_suffolk wrote:
Pebble wrote:The technology is already there, we were test driving a car a few weeks back and it knew what the speed limit was for what ever road I was on, it was capable of controlling my speed on adaptive cruise so surely it would be simple enough to limit your speed to whatever the limit was on that road.



Just hope that the technology is better than the (2) sat-navs I have, both of which don't have any idea of the speed limit on many of the small lanes around here. I can happily be in a 30 zone, and it thinks it's 60.

Additionally, what about temporary speed restrictions such as road works, (and after they have been removed and speed goes up), as the sat-nav gets these wrong more often than not. Or will I be compelled to update the database every week, or have the car accept data so it can update itself?

I believe it was a sign recognition system - we get the thing next week I will let you know if it is any use.

It is also supposed to see things in front and take avoiding action if I haven't seen them - I'm looking for a cyclist to test it out on, any volunteers?

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Bmblbzzz » 24 Aug 2020, 9:08pm

mjr wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:This technology will be in all new cars in Europe* from 2022.
https://etsc.eu/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa/

"overridable" so this will only stop the careless, not the reckless. It is absolutely not a substitute for speed control cameras.

Yes, at this stage it's "assistance". From what I've read, it will give "haptic feedback", requiring more pressure on the accelerator pedal and making that and/or the steering wheel and/or the driver's seat vibrate or pulsate. The idea is to alert and question not to limit.

It's easy to predict that once it's been established for several years, the next stage will be "speed adaptation" and later "speed control". Even when that stage is established, there will of course be many vehicles without it (both due to age and type) as well as some who illegally disable it, so no justification to remove speed cameras or cease traffic patrols (Oh, we did that a couple of decades ago!).

Its purpose is, of course, not just road safety but market protection for European manufacturers.

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mjr
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby mjr » 25 Aug 2020, 10:32am

It will always be overrideable, else handheld fake limit signs become an excellent way to slow people for disruption, carjacking, assasinations and more.
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Pebble
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pebble » 25 Aug 2020, 10:38am

mjr wrote:It will always be overrideable, else handheld fake limit signs become an excellent way to slow people for disruption, carjacking, assasinations and more.

A cycling jersey with a 20mph sign on its back - brilliant. I want one!

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby thirdcrank » 25 Aug 2020, 11:14am

I have a Tom Tom satnav which is very accurate with speed limit recognition, when the highway authority has updated them. A road just around the corner from here was updated almost immediately. OTOH, there's a network of roads round Aberford - the A1 used to be the main street - which are still shown as derestricted. There is a facility whereby private users can submit info for checking but it seems complicated when it's not just a single stretch of road

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Bmblbzzz » 25 Aug 2020, 11:31am

Pebble wrote:
mjr wrote:It will always be overrideable, else handheld fake limit signs become an excellent way to slow people for disruption, carjacking, assasinations and more.

A cycling jersey with a 20mph sign on its back - brilliant. I want one!

Lolz!

Perhaps we should anticipate changes in (non-visual) design of road signs.

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mjr
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby mjr » 25 Aug 2020, 12:00pm

Pebble wrote:
mjr wrote:It will always be overrideable, else handheld fake limit signs become an excellent way to slow people for disruption, carjacking, assasinations and more.

A cycling jersey with a 20mph sign on its back - brilliant. I want one!

I'm surprised there isn't one already. The closest I found was this from the 20's Plenty campaigners:
Image

Bmblbzzz wrote:Lolz!

Perhaps we should anticipate changes in (non-visual) design of road signs.

It would take years and cost government probably millions to replace them all. There are still 50+-year-old 30-limit signs on UK roads (recognisable by the pointy number 3). I don't think that'll happen soon.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Bmblbzzz » 25 Aug 2020, 12:32pm

I was thinking something like RFID tags on speed limit signs, which would only have to be applied where the limit changes, not to repeaters (which not every country uses anyway). I was going to add that it couldn't actually be RFID because that doesn't have the necessary range, but:
Some countries are using RFID for vehicle registration and enforcement.[41] RFID can help detect and retrieve stolen cars.[42][43]


RFID E-ZPass reader attached to the pole and mast arm (right) used in traffic monitoring in New York City
RFID is used in intelligent transportation systems. In New York City, RFID readers are deployed at intersections to track E-ZPass tags as a means for monitoring the traffic flow. The data is fed through the broadband wireless infrastructure to the traffic management center to be used in adaptive traffic control of the traffic lights.[44]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-fre ... _logistics

It's an opportunity for a massive transfer of state funds to private firms in the motor industry. What European government could pass that up? :wink:

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby millimole » 25 Aug 2020, 4:18pm

My Toyota, for all its other niggles, is excellent on the speed limit front.
The satnav knows all the speed limits (and seems to get periodic updates) - exceed it and you get a verbal warning, plus there's speed limit sign recognition which shows the current limit (other than NSL) next to the current speed - exceed this and you'll get bleeped at!
Unlike my previous car (Renault) there's no way of setting the speed limiter to the 'current limit' - the limiter has to be set manually.
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Audaxing on my Dawes; Riding to work on a Decathlon Hoprider

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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pete Owens » 26 Aug 2020, 11:17am

Jdsk wrote:Apparently there's a big difference between the evidence around 20 mph speed limits and 20 mph speed zones. Zones using those physical calming measures.

eg RoSPA: "20mph Zones and Speed Limits Factsheet"
https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/drivers/20-mph-zone-factsheet.pdf
which includes:
"Evidence shows that 20mph zones are an effective way of preventing injuries on the road.
There is less experience with 20mph limits although they have generally been positive at reducing traffic speeds. They do not reduce traffic speeds as much as zones."



This is a self fulfilling outcome - and thus justification for - the police obstructiveness, which is quoted uncritically in the factsheet.
"20mph limits are most appropriate for roads where average speeds are already low, and the guidance suggests
below 24mph. The layout and use of the road must also give the clear impression that a 20mph speed or
below is the most appropriate."


A long time ago that used to be the official guidance - it is now much more flexible - allowing highway authorities to choose appropriate limits. Unfortunately, the police still use this with religious zeal to oppose any 20 mph limit that might be useful - while noisily announcing that they will not enforce the limit). If you systematically restrict the use of 20 mph limits to situation where drivers are already driving at 20 - it is self-evident that you will find that those limits have little effect.