Reduced Speed Limits

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Bmblbzzz » 28 Aug 2020, 6:12pm

AIUI this doesn't mean all roads in those urban areas will be 20mph. What it means is that 20mph will be the default in built-up areas and where LA, police or someone thinks a different speed limit is appropriate, they will have to make the case for it.

Pebble
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pebble » 28 Aug 2020, 8:21pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:AIUI this doesn't mean all roads in those urban areas will be 20mph. What it means is that 20mph will be the default in built-up areas and where LA, police or someone thinks a different speed limit is appropriate, they will have to make the case for it.

No, not really. As far as I can tell (aftter speaking to a couple of councillors) this is pretty much all 30mph roads in the Scottish Borders, the only roads that will not be reduced to 20 are the Trunk roads as they are managed by Highway Scotland, and they are askiing highway scotland to reduce these to 20.

I really don't know what to make of it, as a driver I can think of a few roads that I regularly use that feel too slow at 30, I stick to 30 and often have angry people tailgating and jockeying as if they are going to over-take, some have even done so. These roads are now going to be 20mph

But of course these roads are the only access to the town centre for many residents of the town, if we want these people to cycle instead of driving then we need roads that feel a lot safer than they do now. Hopefully this new speed limit will do the trick.

Pete Owens
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pete Owens » 28 Aug 2020, 11:37pm

Nigel wrote:I am not expecting much enforcement, other than by some drivers sticking to the new limit forcing those behind to go slower. There are not that many police officers around, and the borders is a big area with relatively few people.

Unfortunately, from the attitude of the police in the press release it seems there will be no enforcement at all.

Now the whole concept should not rely on police presence at every road junction to make it work, but in order for it to be taken seriously there has to be the possibility (however remote) of speeders getting caught. There needs to be a well publicised enforcement effort at the start of the scheme just to establish awareness that these are genuine legally enforcable limits. Even if this is just one officer sitting in one car for one day on an A road through one village - preferably outside the gates of a school. You should be able to generate a headline involving tens of fines handed out - and weeks later more headlines when some drivers lose their licences for getting more than 3 points for getting caught at double the speed limit. The more the gnashing and wailing of the poor downtrodden otherwise law abiding motorists the more the impression will be given that you need to watch your speed in the Borders.

Pete Owens
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pete Owens » 28 Aug 2020, 11:41pm

Pebble wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:AIUI this doesn't mean all roads in those urban areas will be 20mph. What it means is that 20mph will be the default in built-up areas and where LA, police or someone thinks a different speed limit is appropriate, they will have to make the case for it.

No, not really. As far as I can tell (aftter speaking to a couple of councillors) this is pretty much all 30mph roads in the Scottish Borders, the only roads that will not be reduced to 20 are the Trunk roads as they are managed by Highway Scotland, and they are askiing highway scotland to reduce these to 20.

I think you are at cross purposes here. I think Bmblbzzz is referring to Wales - where the new default limit will be 20mph, but it is up to LAs to decide specific exceptions. Pebble is referring to the Borders - which is the LA deciding to change from the default Scittish 30mph limit for the roads it is responsible for.

DaveGos
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby DaveGos » 29 Aug 2020, 11:03am

Dont need reduced speed limits around my village , the pot holes assure that and the effective limit comes down each year automatically and the number of bike punctures goes up and all at no expense to the council

Pebble
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pebble » 30 Aug 2020, 11:31am

Nigel wrote:
I too was surprised at the scope - all towns and most villages.

At one level, I think its a good way to try 20mph. There's little doubt/confusion about whether its 20 or not; if its a built up area its 20 (was 30). Whereas a "20 here, 30 there, 40 somewhere else" approach is confusing (particularly when added to the signs buried in an overgrown hedge). It might make evaluation a bit simpler as there is something to look at from all communities.

I agree some of the drivers are going to go nuts on social media about it; probably mid September when the signs start to appear. And its going to make some of the runs into towns very different to drive, even for those trying to be law-abiding.

Top-tip: if your car has cruise control, then likely it also has a speed limiter option. Usually a single button press to work it. I find the speed limiter brilliant in urban areas (and average camera long roadworks); stop worrying about exceeding the speed limit, and I can then just drive to what I can see around me.


Out of curiosity when did you first become aware of the proposal, the first I heard of it was about 3 days before the vote, I am yet to meet someone who knew it was on the table, very few still are clueless as to what is going to happen. Seems to have been well sneaked through.

Oh yes, one of my councillors who does not seem to impressed with the idea has emailed me to let me know "Cyclists must also abide by the 20mph limit" lol

thirdcrank
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby thirdcrank » 30 Aug 2020, 12:18pm

Pebble wrote: ... one of my councillors who does not seem to impressed with the idea has emailed me to let me know "Cyclists must also abide by the 20mph limit" ...


I cannot speak for Scotland, but AIUI, that's not the case in England.

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Syd
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Syd » 30 Aug 2020, 12:30pm

thirdcrank wrote:
Pebble wrote: ... one of my councillors who does not seem to impressed with the idea has emailed me to let me know "Cyclists must also abide by the 20mph limit" ...


I cannot speak for Scotland, but AIUI, that's not the case in England.

It’s true that speed limits don’t apply to cyclists unless they are included in local bylaws.

AIUI the laws in Scotland for 20mph zones do not include cyclists.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Cyril Haearn » 30 Aug 2020, 12:43pm

I think maximum speed limits should apply to cyclists too
Anyone disagree?

The present situation is anachronistic, one wonders whether maximum speed limits apply to horses or their riders/drivers
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Pebble
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pebble » 30 Aug 2020, 1:05pm

thirdcrank wrote:
Pebble wrote: ... one of my councillors who does not seem to impressed with the idea has emailed me to let me know "Cyclists must also abide by the 20mph limit" ...


I cannot speak for Scotland, but AIUI, that's not the case in England.

I doubt it is the case north of the border either, bikes do not have to have speedometres so how can they abide by a speed limit. Even if it was the case I cannot imaging the police handing tickets out to cyclists for 22mph when the average car will be something like 29. I think it was just sour grapes by someone who clearly opposes the idea, I'm surprised road tax, helmets and traffic lights didn't get thrown in for good measure. quite funny really.
Last edited by Pebble on 30 Aug 2020, 1:25pm, edited 1 time in total.

drossall
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby drossall » 30 Aug 2020, 1:06pm

Parliament didn't think so. It introduced speed limits specifically for motor vehicles, which is why they don't apply to others (and no, not to horses either). Legislation against furious/reckless/whatever driving, which does apply to all vehicles, was thought sufficient for the rest.

A cyclist coming off a hill at 40mph into a shopping area would rightly be prosecuted under the earlier legislation. I wouldn't resist changing the law, but I doubt it would be worthwhile, and it would distract from the way that the current situation reflects the special dangers caused by motor vehicles.

drossall
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby drossall » 30 Aug 2020, 1:08pm

Pebble wrote:I doubt it is the case north of the border either, bikes do not have to have speedometres so how can they abide by a speed limit...

That's a common myth, but it's not true. As someone colourfully pointed out, that argument would make motorists immune to drink-driving legislation, because dashboards are not fitted with breathalysers. Cars have speedometers because they are subject to speed limits, not the other way around. Anyway, most cyclists capable of exceeding speed limits would have GPS devices these days.

Parliament chose to legislate that (I paraphrase) drivers of motor vehicles may not exceed the designated speed limits. By definition, drivers of other vehicles are exempt.

Pebble
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pebble » 30 Aug 2020, 1:35pm

drossall wrote:
Pebble wrote:I doubt it is the case north of the border either, bikes do not have to have speedometres so how can they abide by a speed limit...

That's a common myth, but it's not true. As someone colourfully pointed out, that argument would make motorists immune to drink-driving legislation, because dashboards are not fitted with breathalysers. Cars have speedometers because they are subject to speed limits, not the other way around. Anyway, most cyclists capable of exceeding speed limits would have GPS devices these days.

Parliament chose to legislate that (I paraphrase) drivers of motor vehicles may not exceed the designated speed limits. By definition, drivers of other vehicles are exempt.

I stand corrected -

I'm so tempted to point that out to him but that would be very childish of me. I can go at 30 on my bicycle but you must keep to 20 in your jaguar - ha ha.

thirdcrank
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby thirdcrank » 30 Aug 2020, 1:54pm

While I was checking to make sure that they hadn't changed the law on speed limits without telling me, I discovered how easy - in law-making terms - it would be to convert all restricted roads, ie 30mph because of lamp posts - to, say, 20mph. I thought that individual speed orders would be the only way but the default limit, now 30 could be changed by order. Thinking it through, that's only what has happened with other general speed limits. Obviously, they'd end up with a lot of redundant 30 signs, except in the unlikely event that they changed the measure from mph to kph.

drossall
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Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby drossall » 30 Aug 2020, 2:20pm

Pebble wrote:I can go at 30 on my bicycle but you must keep to 20 in your jaguar - ha ha.

Except that, as I said, anyone doing 30 on a bike in a 20 limit would prima facie be exposed to a charge of reckless (or possibly furious, but I'm not sure whether that term is still used) riding.