Reduced Speed Limits

Jdsk
Posts: 2500
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Jdsk » 30 Aug 2020, 3:52pm

TTBOMK "wanton" and "furious" charges are still available but they require injury to someone else. "Dangerous", "careless" and "inconsiderate" don't.

Jonathan

thirdcrank
Posts: 29481
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby thirdcrank » 30 Aug 2020, 5:14pm

Earwig "O" again:

Town Police Clauses Act 1847

28 Penalty on persons committing any of the offences herein named.


Every person who in any street, to the obstruction, annoyance, or danger of the residents or passengers, commits any of the following offences, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding [F16level 3 on the standard scale] for each offence, or, in the discretion of the justice before whom he is convicted, may be committed to prison, there to remain for a period not exceeding fourteen days, (that is to say,)
Every person who exposes for show, hire, or sale (except in a market or market place or fair lawfully appointed for that purpose) any horse or other animal, or exhibits in a caravan or otherwise any show or public entertainment, or shoes, bleeds, or farries any horse or animal (except in cases of accident), or cleans, dresses, exercises, trains or breaks, or turns loose any horse or animal, or makes or repairs any part of any cart or carriage (except in cases of accident where repair on the spot is necessary):
Every person who suffers to be at large any unmuzzled ferocious dog, or sets on or urges any dog or other animal to attack, worry, or put in fear any person or animal:
Every person who slaughters or dresses any cattle, or any part thereof, except in the case of any cattle over-driven which may have met with any accident, and which for the public safety or other reasonable cause ought to be killed on the spot:
Every person having the care of any waggon, cart, or carriage who rides on the shafts thereof, or who without having reins, and holding the same, rides upon such waggon, cart, or carriage, or on any animal drawing the same, or who is at such a distance from such waggon, cart, or carriage as not to have due control over every animal drawing the same, or who does not, in meeting any other carriage, keep his waggon, cart, or carriage to the left or near side, or who in passing any other carriage does not keep his waggon, cart, or carriage on the right or off side of the road (except in cases of actual necessity, or some sufficient reason for deviation) or who, by obstructing the street, wilfully prevents any person or carriage from passing him, or any waggon, cart, or carriage under his care:
Every person who rides or drives furiously any horse or carriage, or drives furiously any cattle:
Every person who causes any public carriage, sledge, truck, or barrow, with or without horses, or any beast of burden, to stand longer than is necessary for loading or unloading goods, or for taking up or setting down passengers (except hackney carriages, and horses and other beasts of draught or burthen, standing for hire in any place appointed for that purpose by the commissioners or other lawful authority), and every person who, by means of any cart, carriage, sledge, truck, or barrow, or any animal, or other means, wilfully interrupts any public crossing, or wilfully causes any obstruction in any public footpath or other public thoroughfare:
Every person who causes any tree or timber or iron beam to be drawn in or upon any carriage, without having sufficient means of safely guiding the same:
Every person who leads or rides any horse or other animal, or draws or drives any cart or carriage, sledge, truck, or barrow upon any footway of any street, or fastens any horse or other animal so that it stands across or upon any footway:
Every person who places or leaves any furniture, goods, wares, or merchandize, or any cask, tub, basket, pail, or bucket, or places or uses any standing-place, stool, bench, stall, or showboard on any footway, or who places any blind, shade, covering, awning, or other projection over or along any such footway, unless such blind, shade, covering, awning, or other projection is eight feet in height at least in every part thereof from the ground:
Every person who places, hangs up, or otherwise exposes to sale any goods, wares, merchandize, matter, or thing whatsoever, so that the same project into or over any footway, or beyond the line of any house, shop, or building at which the same are so exposed, so as to obstruct or incommode the passage of any person over or along such footway:
Every person who rolls or carries any cask, tub, hoop, or wheel, or any ladder, plank, pole, timber, or log of wood, upon any footway, except for the purpose of loading or unloading any cart or carriage, or of crossing the footway:
Every person who places any line, cord, or pole across any street, or hangs or places any clothes thereon:
Every person who publicly offers for sale or distribution, or exhibits to public view any profane, book, paper, print, drawing, painting, or representation, or sings any profane or obscene song or ballad, or uses any profane or obscene language:
Every person who wantonly discharges any firearm, or throws or discharges any stone or other missile, or makes any bonfire, or throws or sets fire to any firework:
Every person who wilfully and wantonly disturbs any inhabitant, by pulling or ringing any door bell, or knocking at any door, or who wilfully and unlawfully extinguishes the light of any lamp:
Every person who flies any kite, or who makes or uses any slide upon ice or snow:
Every person who cleanses, hoops, fires, washes, or scalds any cask or tub, or hews, saws, bores, or cuts any timber or stone, or slacks, sifts, or screens any lime:
Every person who throws or lays down any stones, coals, slate, shells, lime, bricks, timber, iron, or other materials (except building materials so inclosed as to prevent mischief to passengers):
Every person who beats or shakes any carpet, rug, or mat (except door mats, beaten or shaken before the hour of eight in the morning):]
Every person who fixes or places any flower-pot or box, or other heavy article, in any upper window, without sufficiently guarding the same against being blown down:
Every person who throws from the roof or any part of any house or other building any slate, brick, wood, rubbish, or other thing, except snow thrown so as not to fall on any passenger:
Every occupier of any house or other building or other person who orders or permits any person in his service to stand on the sill of any window, in order to clean, paint, or perform any other operation upon the outside of such window, or upon any house or other building within the said limits, unless such window be in the sunk or basement story:
Every person who leaves open any vault or cellar, or the entrance from any street to any cellar or room underground, without a sufficient fence or handrail, or leaves defective the door, window, or other covering of any vault or cellar, or who does not sufficiently fence any area, pit, or sewer left open, or who leaves such open area, pit, or sewer without a sufficient light after sunset to warn and prevent persons from falling thereinto:
Every person who throws or lays any dirt, litter, or ashes, or nightsoil, or any carrion, fish, offal, or rubbish, on any street, or causes any offensive matter to run from any manufactory, brewery, slaughter-house, butcher’s shop, or dunghill into any street: Provided always, that it shall not be deemed an offence to lay sand or other materials in any street in time of frost, to prevent accidents, or litter or other suitable materials to prevent the freezing of water in pipes, or in case of sickness to prevent noise, if the party laying any such things causes them to be removed as soon as the occasion for them ceases:
Every person who keeps any pigstye to the front of any street, not being shut out from such street by a sufficient wall or fence, or who keeps any swine in or near any street, so as to be a common nuisance.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/10-11/89

On a previous thread there are links to some modern prosecutions for this

Pete Owens
Posts: 1894
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pete Owens » 30 Aug 2020, 5:56pm

thirdcrank wrote:While I was checking to make sure that they hadn't changed the law on speed limits without telling me, I discovered how easy - in law-making terms - it would be to convert all restricted roads, ie 30mph because of lamp posts - to, say, 20mph. I thought that individual speed orders would be the only way but the default limit, now 30 could be changed by order. Thinking it through, that's only what has happened with other general speed limits. Obviously, they'd end up with a lot of redundant 30 signs, except in the unlikely event that they changed the measure from mph to kph.

Which I think is what will be happening in Wales. I guess the sign issue could be dealt with by purchacing a bulk order of black "2" stickers of the appropriate size.

Nigel
Posts: 239
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 6:29pm

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Nigel » 30 Aug 2020, 7:34pm

Pebble wrote:
Nigel wrote:
I too was surprised at the scope - all towns and most villages.

At one level, I think its a good way to try 20mph. There's little doubt/confusion about whether its 20 or not; if its a built up area its 20 (was 30). Whereas a "20 here, 30 there, 40 somewhere else" approach is confusing (particularly when added to the signs buried in an overgrown hedge). It might make evaluation a bit simpler as there is something to look at from all communities.

I agree some of the drivers are going to go nuts on social media about it; probably mid September when the signs start to appear. And its going to make some of the runs into towns very different to drive, even for those trying to be law-abiding.

Top-tip: if your car has cruise control, then likely it also has a speed limiter option. Usually a single button press to work it. I find the speed limiter brilliant in urban areas (and average camera long roadworks); stop worrying about exceeding the speed limit, and I can then just drive to what I can see around me.


Out of curiosity when did you first become aware of the proposal, the first I heard of it was about 3 days before the vote, I am yet to meet someone who knew it was on the table, very few still are clueless as to what is going to happen. Seems to have been well sneaked through.



Possibly a few days before you ? Sometime between the 40's becoming known on the Stow-Heriot road (I knew that was a possible about 10 days earlier from someone I know) and the general press stuff about "20 limits in 80 Borders towns and villages, details of which to appear next week".

I don't think that counts as "consultation", but a consultation would result in lots of Mr Toad replies swamping everyone, and would take more time than there is left to spend the budget for "temporary active travel changes", so the money would vanish.
The consultation on closing the B road down from Clovenfords to the river for an 18 month trial was also lacking.

I think the council is going for the "its a trial with an evaluation at the end to see if its something people want" approach to it all.



Oh yes, one of my councillors who does not seem to impressed with the idea has emailed me to let me know "Cyclists must also abide by the 20mph limit" lol


Clueless. Just say you've read your Highway Code, specifically rule 124 which covers how speed limits apply to different classes of vehicle.

That said, apart from when there is a tail wind or other assistance, I don't get to 20 very often on the flat. Downhill is different, though in a lot of towns and villages, the poor road surfaces places a limit on what feels safe.


Councillors emailing you - how very odd, I hear absolutely nothing from mine, save the odd leaflet when they'd like me to turn out and vote.


( And the speed limiter thing on a car - been playing with mine, and if you engage the limiter at any speed below 20, it sets to 20, so doddle to use in 20mph areas. I suspect that will be common on a lot of cars ).

- Nigel

jgurney
Posts: 1077
Joined: 10 May 2009, 8:34am

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby jgurney » 30 Aug 2020, 11:03pm

drossall wrote:
Pebble wrote:I can go at 30 on my bicycle but you must keep to 20 in your jaguar - ha ha.

Except that, as I said, anyone doing 30 on a bike in a 20 limit would prima facie be exposed to a charge of reckless (or possibly furious, but I'm not sure whether that term is still used) riding.


Not necesarily. For a cyclist to be convicted of either 'dangerous' or 'furious' cycling it would have to be proved that they had created undue danger (or for 'furious cycling' had caused an obstruction or reasonably caused alarm). The fact that they were riding at 30mph may well not in itself establish that, unless the court could be satisfied that cycling at that speed was of itself dangerous (to others and their property, not to the cyclist). That is why motorists caught exceeding speed limits are generally charged with speeding rather than with 'dangerous' or 'furious' driving, unless there is clear evidence that higher speed directly caused danger.

If the law accepted that cycling at 30mph was in itself dangerous, then that would mean that cycling at 30mph on any road would be illegal, even if motor traffic could lawfully proceed at that or at higher speeds on the same road.

thirdcrank
Posts: 29481
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby thirdcrank » 31 Aug 2020, 7:30am

The place to start proving any statutory offence is with the relevant statute.

... in any street, to the obstruction, annoyance, or danger of the residents or passengers, .... rides or drives furiously any ... carriage, ...

Cyril Haearn
Posts: 14180
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am
Location: Leafy suburbia

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Cyril Haearn » 31 Aug 2020, 7:53am

thirdcrank wrote:The place to start proving any statutory offence is with the relevant statute.

... in any street, to the obstruction, annoyance, or danger of the residents or passengers, .... rides or drives furiously any ... carriage, ...

Surely the maximum speed limits should apply to cyclists
I must write to my MP :?
Entertainer, intellectual, idealist, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies

Nigel
Posts: 239
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 6:29pm

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Nigel » 31 Aug 2020, 2:49pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:The place to start proving any statutory offence is with the relevant statute.

... in any street, to the obstruction, annoyance, or danger of the residents or passengers, .... rides or drives furiously any ... carriage, ...

Surely the maximum speed limits should apply to cyclists
I must write to my MP :?

Cyril Haearn wrote:I think maximum speed limits should apply to cyclists too
Anyone disagree?

The present situation is anachronistic, one wonders whether maximum speed limits apply to horses or their riders/drivers


By all means write to your MP, that's your democratic right. But, I'd rather you didn't. Extending legislation covering motor vehicles to bicycles isn't likely to end well for the average cyclist. The primary driver of legislation for motor vehicles is the damage they can cause to third parties. The damage caused by human propelled vehicles is tiny in comparison.

Does your proposed speeding offence apply to minors ? ( There's a lad at the end of my street. When aged 14 he'd have been able to ride at 30 on the flat, without tailwind assistance. He's turned 18, and has a riding contract with a French race team. Most of the kids around here on bikes could easily trip a 20mph limit. ).

Would your speed limit also apply to humans without a bike ? Good runners can get above 20mph.
What about wheel users ? They can go really fast - far quicker than runners.

What would be the penalty ? For a car/motorcycle driver, the penalty if caught is usually a small fine (often fixed penalty) and points on their license. Points have two effects, tend to increase insurance premiums (poorer risk driver) and over repeat offenses leads to a ban. But, don't need a license for a bicycle (though a cyclists might have a license for other uses). So, points or not ? No points, and small fine ? Larger fine than for motorists because there are no points ? Different penalty depending whether you have a license or not (can't see that surviving a court challenge) ?


Answering your other point about horses, no it doesn't cover them. Highway Code, Rule 124 covers it, with a table of speed limits and the categories of motorised vehicles to which they apply.


- Nigel

tatanab
Posts: 4198
Joined: 8 Feb 2007, 12:37pm

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby tatanab » 31 Aug 2020, 3:37pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:Surely the maximum speed limits should apply to cyclists
I must write to my MP :?
That would require a change in construction and use act to make it compulsory for pedal cycles to have speedometers. No thank you. Laws already exist in that a cyclist can be judged by the subjective offences of riding carelessly/dangerously/furiously.

Pete Owens
Posts: 1894
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Pete Owens » 31 Aug 2020, 11:56pm

No need for speedometers for speed limits to apply. The fact that speed limits do not apply to cycles is just an anomaly - basically due to the fact that it probably didn't occur yo the legislators that we were capable of exceeding them.

However, where 20mph limits are applied we should abide by them even if we are physically capable of going faster. We really shouldn't be blasting through urban areas as fast as we can pedal and pose every bit as much danger as a car driven at the same speed.

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 3492
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Bmblbzzz » 31 Aug 2020, 11:59pm

I agree with that, but at the same time I would object to the extension of speed limits to pedal cycles. Not so much that it would be onerous or unfair but that it would, I feel, act as a gateway to repressive legislation such as compulsory registration and licences.

drossall
Posts: 4945
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby drossall » 1 Sep 2020, 12:15am

Don't forget that bikes were on the roads before cars, and horses (long) before bikes. Only when cars were introduced did legislators think it necessary to have speed limits - in spite of complaints about cyclists "scorching". I don't know for sure, but I think it's more likely that it was an active decision to apply limits only to the new-fangled motor vehicles, because they were so much more dangerous, and not to the other vehicles that had been there before.

Cyril Haearn
Posts: 14180
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am
Location: Leafy suburbia

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby Cyril Haearn » 1 Sep 2020, 5:47am

Pete Owens wrote:..
We really shouldn't be blasting through urban areas as fast as we can pedal and pose every bit as much danger as a car driven at the same speed.

Much less danger, cycle + rider weigh much less than a motor vehicle
Entertainer, intellectual, idealist, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies

thirdcrank
Posts: 29481
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby thirdcrank » 1 Sep 2020, 7:38am

I suspect that introducing set speed limits for motor vehicles was to make prosecution more straightforward. It's possible to drive a car fast - by horse and cart standards - without doing anything furious. Obviously, horses can bolt, but to get them to go fast otherwise needs a lot of gee up, Neddy. This is rather like drink driving. A legless carter is drunk in charge of a carriage, end of. We messed around a long time before fixed blood alcohol limits were decreed for drivers.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 16095
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Reduced Speed Limits

Postby mjr » 1 Sep 2020, 10:13am

Pete Owens wrote:No need for speedometers for speed limits to apply. The fact that speed limits do not apply to cycles is just an anomaly - basically due to the fact that it probably didn't occur yo the legislators that we were capable of exceeding them.

No, it's because the limits were introduced in the Locomotive Acts primarily to reduce damaged roads from fast cornering by heavy vehicles and neither bikes nor horses are that heavy. The purpose has changed but that underlying framework hasn't as much.

However, where 20mph limits are applied we should abide by them even if we are physically capable of going faster. We really shouldn't be blasting through urban areas as fast as we can pedal and pose every bit as much danger as a car driven at the same speed.

No, less mass means less danger but it's still a good idea to interpret 20mph limit as a general caution. I rarely get above second gear in the town centre.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.