Train travel despair

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Sweep
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Re: Train travel despair

Postby Sweep » 12 Sep 2020, 7:55pm

mikeymo wrote:
Sweep wrote:Well as far as I am concerned free bike carriage on trains IS a pre-requisite for any realistic form of integration.


Yes, and the other passengers won't mind subsidising your chosen method of transport at all. Will they?

I rather wonder if you are a cyclist.
Or a utility one.
And fear a dodgy points change has sent us into the dead end of your general political obsessions.
I can reassure your inner accountant that in my pretty long life I have made very little call on the NHS - might be due in some part I suppose because I have cycled a lot the last 20 years.
And even, god forbid, cycle to walk round free museums now and again.
I have also for over 20 years caused very little wear and tear on the roads.
What on earth are you even doing in this thread?

Researching transport profit opportunities from cyclists?
Last edited by Sweep on 12 Sep 2020, 8:01pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sweep

mikeymo
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Re: Train travel despair

Postby mikeymo » 12 Sep 2020, 8:01pm

Sweep wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Sweep wrote:Well as far as I am concerned free bike carriage on trains IS a pre-requisite for any realistic form of integration.


Yes, and the other passengers won't mind subsidising your chosen method of transport at all. Will they?

Rather wonder if you are a cyclist.
And fear a dodgy points change has sent us into the dead end of your general political obsessions.


I cycle a bit. And would like to make short local journeys, that incorporate trains, easily. And don't mind paying to take the bike on a train, if it funds decent facilities.

Or do you "rather wonder" if I'm a cyclist or not because I don't support your demands for free travel for your bike?

mikeymo
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Re: Train travel despair

Postby mikeymo » 12 Sep 2020, 8:25pm

Sweep wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Sweep wrote:Well as far as I am concerned free bike carriage on trains IS a pre-requisite for any realistic form of integration.


Yes, and the other passengers won't mind subsidising your chosen method of transport at all. Will they?

I rather wonder if you are a cyclist.
Or a utility one.
And fear a dodgy points change has sent us into the dead end of your general political obsessions.
I can reassure your inner accountant that in my pretty long life I have made very little call on the NHS - might be due in some part I suppose because I have cycled a lot the last 20 years.
And even, god forbid, cycle to walk round free museums now and again.
I have also for over 20 years caused very little wear and tear on the roads.
What on earth are you even doing in this thread?

Researching transport profit opportunities from cyclists?


It's probably best not to edit your posts after you have received a reply.

Is a "utility cyclist" not a cyclist then? Perhaps if you had taken the time to read my posts you would see that that was exactly the sort of cyclist I was referring to.

You know nothing about my politics. What I said was the world doesn't owe me a living, or free bike transport. And in case it wasn't clear I was referring to trains, as per the thread title. If cyclists had to pay some money to take bikes on trains then there might be an incentive for train companies to provide better facilities. Seems like a simple enough idea to me.

What I am "doing in this thread" is expressing a contrary opinion to yours. I'm sorry somebody having a different opinion is a challenge to you.

I don't know what your comments about the NHS and museums has to do with how easy or difficult it is to take bikes on trains.

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RickH
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Re: Train travel despair

Postby RickH » 12 Sep 2020, 8:33pm

thirdcrank wrote:Re hanging up bikes by a hook, it's been posted before but I think it's worth repeating:-

It's easier to present the rear wheel to the hook than the front, which flops about.

Only if you have the upper body strength to lift the bike & swing it into a vertical position while it is off the ground. If you need to do a 2 stage manoever - get it vertical then lift it - it is very difficult rear wheel up & trying to balance the weight of the bike on the floppy front wheel.

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Sweep
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Location: London

Re: Train travel despair

Postby Sweep » 12 Sep 2020, 9:36pm

mikeymo wrote:
It's probably best not to edit your posts after you have received a reply..

yes i think i added something or posts crossed.
didn't change the point of my post.
i stand by it.
Sweep

PH
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Re: Train travel despair

Postby PH » 12 Sep 2020, 9:43pm

mikeymo wrote:
Sweep wrote:Well as far as I am concerned free bike carriage on trains IS a pre-requisite for any realistic form of integration.


Yes, and the other passengers won't mind subsidising your chosen method of transport at all. Will they?

Why on earth would we need to do that? The railways are already subsidised, the piper can already call the tune, what's lacking is the will. If it needs an additional subsidy we could take a bit of the huge subsidies car users get.

PH
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Re: Train travel despair

Postby PH » 12 Sep 2020, 9:46pm

RickH wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:Re hanging up bikes by a hook, it's been posted before but I think it's worth repeating:-

It's easier to present the rear wheel to the hook than the front, which flops about.

Only if you have the upper body strength to lift the bike & swing it into a vertical position while it is off the ground. If you need to do a 2 stage manoever - get it vertical then lift it - it is very difficult rear wheel up & trying to balance the weight of the bike on the floppy front wheel.

Not only that, but on many trains the bike cupboard is right next to a door, there isn't always room to turn so you'd have to get the bike onto the train rear wheel first. I hang by the front wheel and quite often have to get off rear wheel first.

mikeymo
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Re: Train travel despair

Postby mikeymo » 12 Sep 2020, 11:02pm

PH wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Sweep wrote:Well as far as I am concerned free bike carriage on trains IS a pre-requisite for any realistic form of integration.


Yes, and the other passengers won't mind subsidising your chosen method of transport at all. Will they?

Why on earth would we need to do that? The railways are already subsidised, the piper can already call the tune, what's lacking is the will. If it needs an additional subsidy we could take a bit of the huge subsidies car users get.


Bike/train/bike is definitely an option for me on two of my regular commutes. In fact, if it were possible or reliable it could well mean I would sell the car, uses taxis if necessary and maybe hire a car for times I need one. I'd be at least £1000 a year better off in fixed costs alone. About the same amount of subsidy that Transport 2000 reckoned every car gets:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/government-challenged-over-motoring-myths-real-cost-of-roads-far-higher-than-ministers-say-transport-1416229.html

Though you'll have to make allowances for the dodgy use of statistics there.

Maybe there are a lot of other people like me, yes?

So let's try this thought experiment.

The train companies adapt all their trains, and network rail make adjustments to the stations and platforms, so that I can ride down to my local station, wheel the bike onto the train, stow it without having to lift it, sit next to it, then wheel off at the other end. They make sure there is always enough space for that to happen, maybe I can have a reserved space. That's going to take up more space on the train. One person sitting down plus a bike, is more floor space than one person sitting down.

This sounds great, so lots of other people start doing it, let's imagine. Half of all commuters in fact. But the bike carriages are bigger than the pedestrian only carriages, for the same number of passengers. So our imaginary train carrying, let's say, 150 pedestrians and 150 cyclists (and their bikes) is actually two thirds bike carriages and one third pedestrian carriages. Now then, I'm going to guess (and I genuinely welcome input from anybody with inside knowledge of the finances of running a train company) that the vast majority of the costs of running a train are fixed costs. Or to put it another way, the marginal cost per passenger is very small, and is essentially the same for a passenger with or without a pedal cycle. So in my 150/150 and one third/two thirds scenario, the amount of fixed cost attributed to each passenger-with-a-bike will be exactly twice that attributed to each bikeless passenger. Does that strike you as equitable? After all, don't first class passengers on aeroplanes pay more because they take up more space (correct me if I'm wrong, I've only been on an aeroplane twice)?

Let's continue this thought experiment. While standing on the platform waiting for the 8:32 to Somewheresville to arrive, a cyclist and pedestrian passenger strike up a conversation:

Cyclist: "oh, it's great with all these new bike only carriages, I can cycle down from home, wheel the bike onto the train, wheel it off at the other end and it's a short ride to work. And the train company doesn't charge me any more for it. In fact I've sold my car, I'm saving a fortune".

Pedestrian: "I often can't get a seat, because they can't fit any more carriages on the train". Thump.

But that's ridiculous, you think, there aren't ever going to be that many people making journeys like. Why not? You think will is lacking, I think imagination is lacking. I think it's very possible to imagine a situation where many people do exactly that journey, like that. But because it's not seen, even by some cyclists it seems, as a viable option, FOR ORDINARY PEOPLE, IN THE WAY I DESCRIBED IT, nobody bothers doing it. So it stays as it is, and the train companies make a gesture and fit a couple of cycles in, somewhere. Like the hanging broom cupboard.

That's why I'm perfectly willing to pay for it. Though of course, in the words of Lord Curzon, now we've established the principle, let's get down to the bargaining.

Pendodave
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Re: Train travel despair

Postby Pendodave » 15 Sep 2020, 8:45pm

Pendodave wrote:I was always a bit sceptical of the hangers, but recently watched one of the vintage touring information films referenced elsewhere on the forum and discovered that hanging a bike by a hook was recommended by the "international cycle touring association"...
Who knew.

Re. The new west coast stock, I've put out a couple of enquiries and will report back if I hear anything.

So...
I'm a little reluctant to reopen the can of worms here, but as I have information and have referred to it, I'll leave it here :

Each of the new trains has space for 4 bikes. These are carried in 2 cupboards, with 2 bikes per cupboard. The cupboards are located in the No 2 end vestibule of the 1st intermediate vehicle in each train. The cupboard features staff-lockable doors, but these are to be locked open when in use.The bike racks are the same as IEP/AT300/Azuma/802 trains, where the bikes hang vertically from their front wheel. There is a small change to our trains as the hanging bracket currently fitted does not accommodate larger mountain bike tyres. Hitachi are changing this to accommodate the larger tyres. Each space is reservable and has an electronic reservation screen.

Hope that this helps
d

PH
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Re: Train travel despair

Postby PH » 15 Sep 2020, 9:46pm

Pendodave wrote:Hope that this helps
d

It does, thanks.