48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

tim-b
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by tim-b »

Hi
Even more so if the hidden subsidy for HGVs in the tax regime...snip

Diesel trains have been powered by red diesel for decades and currently pay 11p per litre duty (~10%?), road vehicles currently pay 58p per litre duty
I'm the first to admit that I don't know how many goods trains are diesels, but there are lots of infrastructure and tax issues that could be ironed out so that objective comparisons can be made on a level playing field
Regards
tim-b
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ThePinkOne
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007, 9:21pm

Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by ThePinkOne »

tim-b wrote:Hi
Even more so if the hidden subsidy for HGVs in the tax regime...snip

Diesel trains have been powered by red diesel for decades and currently pay 11p per litre duty (~10%?), road vehicles currently pay 58p per litre duty
I'm the first to admit that I don't know how many goods trains are diesels, but there are lots of infrastructure and tax issues that could be ironed out so that objective comparisons can be made on a level playing field
Regards
tim-b


Freight trains pay track access charges, by the mile and depending on how much damage the rolling stock does to the track and how busy that stretch is. Plus if the train breaks down and causes delay, they pay delay minutes which can be up to £200/minute and includes all knock on delays. If a regular path cannot be obtained they need to bid for a very short term path but may not get it if the railway is full.

So let's level the playing field properly and do the same for HGVs by introducing road charging based in a similar way AND charge them for delay minutes when they cause a delay through breakdown or accident. And if the motorway is already busy, sorry but you'll be waiting on the slip road for 2 or 3 hours until there's a slot.

TPO
Pebble
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by Pebble »

There is not a hope in hell of anything changing in our lifetimes, rail has no spare capacity and any foreseeable investment will be passenger. Yes its slack at the moment but covid will end and things will get back to normal and rail will be struggling with passengers.

Investment to get frieght off the road would just be incomprehensibly expensive, and would it work in such a small country. And even if it did get up and running would it make a difference where it is needed. We are bulking cereals from farm to food producers, typical example, 26t of wheat from a local farm to Blackburn. 300 mile round trip, probably have a time delivery window of 4 hours in 2 days time. (they probably need two deliveries a week and have limited capacity to store) By lorry, no problem

By rail, if there was suitable goods yards for transfer, it would likely be 100 mile round trip this end, 60 mile round trip the other end. So the lorries would still exist on the roads we don't want them on, and we would have the expense of loading/unloading 3x instead of once. And the only benefit would be less wagons on motorways where they don't currently cause any real problems.

I'm sure more could be done but I doubt you could get 10% of the wagons off the road. We really need to be moving less goods not finding alternative methods. We need to consume less.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Pebble wrote:There is not a hope in hell of anything changing in our lifetimes, rail has no spare capacity and any foreseeable investment will be passenger.

A lot changes in a lifetime. Or even in a decade. The amount of investment going into rail now is on a scale not seen for 70 years or so and it's not only into passenger. In terms of freight, there is investment currently in eg Felixstowe. Besides, a lot of investment benefits both passenger and freight; upgrades to track and signalling, new lines (especially HS2, which will move a lot of passenger services off the existing lines, freeing up capacity for freight and locals), and the potential for battery-electrics (early days yet but there's hope).

We really need to be moving less goods not finding alternative methods. We need to consume less.

Aye.
deeferdonk
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by deeferdonk »

Large rail freight hub has/is being built near East midlands airport

https://www.slp-emg.com/
st599_uk
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by st599_uk »

tim-b wrote:Hi
Even more so if the hidden subsidy for HGVs in the tax regime...snip

Diesel trains have been powered by red diesel for decades and currently pay 11p per litre duty (~10%?), road vehicles currently pay 58p per litre duty
I'm the first to admit that I don't know how many goods trains are diesels, but there are lots of infrastructure and tax issues that could be ironed out so that objective comparisons can be made on a level playing field
Regards
tim-b


Red Diesel ceases to be allowed for many uses in 2022. Wonder if freight is one of them.
A novice learning...
“the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
SA_SA_SA
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

What about overhead lines on motorways so that hgvs can switch to electric rather than liquid fuel for spine of journey? Pantographs to be automatic of course.
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simonineaston
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by simonineaston »

Horse, truck, snow... https://youtu.be/hlyDkpYHR70
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Jdsk
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by Jdsk »

SA_SA_SA wrote:What about overhead lines on motorways so that hgvs can switch to electric rather than liquid fuel for spine of journey? Pantographs to be automatic of course.

... not sure if that's a subtle plea for moving freight to rail...

... but if not I don't expect anyone to even run the experiment. The problems are overwhelming: massive infrastructure costs, lane changing, mass of both power systems in the vehicle (unless it's already electric only)...

... but power supply from the road bed is repeatedly proposed!

Jonathan
SA_SA_SA
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

It was caused by the general downer on suggestions to move frieght onto railways in the uk.

I did say the pantograph must be automatic.. With electric power less hgv overtaking other hgv at 1mph?
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I've a feeling something similar was tried in California for a while too.
SA_SA_SA
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

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Pebble
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Re: 48 tonnes HGV's for road-rail freight - good or bad?

Post by Pebble »

SA_SA_SA wrote:It was caused by the general downer on suggestions to move frieght onto railways in the uk.

I did say the pantograph must be automatic.. With electric power less hgv overtaking other hgv at 1mph?

I'm sure there would be plenty still move off the power lines and attempt the overtake.
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