Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Zulu Eleven
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by Zulu Eleven »

cycle tramp wrote:
Zulu Eleven wrote:
It is not patronising to say that in my opinion guns have no place in my countryside for any purposes whatsoever.



Really?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ays-report


Let's bring back the wolves for that


130,000 deer currently shot annually in Scotland.

How many wolves and lynx do you suggest releasing?

(If it helps, this sort of analytical detail is how you tell the difference between someone who has worked as a professional deer stalker, and someone who has read a George Monbiot book)
cycle tramp
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by cycle tramp »

Zulu Eleven wrote:
cycle tramp wrote:


Let's bring back the wolves for that


130,000 deer currently shot annually in Scotland.

How many wolves and lynx do you suggest releasing?

(If it helps, this sort of analytical detail is how you tell the difference between someone who has worked as a professional deer stalker, and someone who has read a George Monbiot book)


As someone who keeps chickens, I sometimes have to think about foxes.
If we were to consider introducing wolves and lynx, perhaps rather than list the number of deer shot each year, we should consider the number of sheep to be saved. Wool is sadly under rated - warm, breathable, natural, hard wearing.
And there is also the economics to consider. If wolves replaced shooting what would be the economic cost to Scotland. How much is it to shoot a red deer, 600 pounds or more? Then the are the additional markets, such as preparing trophies from the carcass. I'm guessing most of the market for this kind of thing is from America? China? Russia? Although I am guessing here.

How many wolves? Well, the thing about wolves is that they breed so their numbers match the amount of food available http://www.scotsman.com/news/environmen ... 8608%3famp
https://www.conservationjobs.co.uk/arti ... -Scotland/
Pebble
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by Pebble »

If Scotland 'rewilded' and reinstated the likes of the Caledonian Forest then Eco tourism would far out perform in economic terms the few hooray henry city traders coming up to play with their guns. We have to be better as a nation than this victorian killing wildlife crap

wolves & Bears would probably be a step too far (although I would have them). So obviously we would still have to manage the likes of deer, but that could be done with professionals (like it is mostly done now) no need to sell the shooting rights to gun obsessed odd bods.

Those with a love of guns could emigrate to the american mid west, buy an oversized pick up truck and a "I love Trump" flag to wave - good riddance to them.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by Oldjohnw »

Shooting wildlife @£600 or more. And the money goes to?
John
Zulu Eleven
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by Zulu Eleven »

Pebble wrote:If Scotland 'rewilded' and reinstated the likes of the Caledonian Forest then Eco tourism would far out perform in economic terms the few hooray henry city traders coming up to play with their guns.


I believe Dr Cathy Mayne adequately covers this point here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOtUPSWv5nA&t=109s

From my own point of view it remains fantasy to think that so called eco-tourism (with its huge carbon footprint) can sustainably replace a small number of people spending tens of thousands of pounds per day. How much are people willing to pay to go hiking and mountain biking in the hills (which are free to access remember), and thats before we look at the impact on vulnerable road users like cyclists of a huge increase in car-based tourism in the highlands, look at the utter chaos created by the North Coast 500

obviously we would still have to manage the likes of deer, but that could be done with professionals (like it is mostly done now) no need to sell the shooting rights to gun obsessed odd bods.

What exactly do you think pays those professionals wages? guiding and stalking fees. Put simply, it takes a *lot* of visitors paying £10 or 20 per head for a guided trip around a nature reserve to replace the economic impact of a single day's stalking or fishing (off-season hind stalking can cost as little as £60-80 per day, a week trophy stalking and salmon fishing at some of the prime estates can cost many thousands), let along the impact an infrastructure needed in order to support that level of tourism. You appear to want to replace an almost entirely sustainable economic model that supports jobs and communities year-round with a fundamentally unsustainable and almost entirely seasonal one - presumably requiring taxpayers to pick up the shortfall? Genius.

Those with a love of guns could emigrate to the american mid west, buy an oversized pick up truck and a "I love Trump" flag to wave - good riddance to them.

I've seen similar intolerance exerted towards cyclists.
cycle tramp
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by cycle tramp »

Zulu Eleven wrote:
Pebble wrote:]obviously we would still have to manage the likes of deer, but that could be done with professionals (like it is mostly done now) no need to sell the shooting rights to gun obsessed odd bods.
You appear to want to replace an almost entirely sustainable economic model that supports jobs and communities year-round with a fundamentally unsustainable and almost entirely seasonal one - presumably requiring taxpayers to pick up the shortfall? Genius.


Er..paragraph 10, section 20 of the Scottish Government 'The Management of WIld Deer in Scotland; Deer Working Repprt' report published 5th Feb 2020;

SNH concluded from information in figures 42 and 43 that while the public sectors estimated the annual income from deer management was FES's 1.8m the public sector's annual expenditure was £12.9m.

Is an government expenditure of 12.9 million pounds, sustainable? I guess it depends on the national income generated through hunting deer... Actually this section is (for a government document) really interesting to read. It points out that the financial impact caused by deer still fails to be adequately recorded, and there is a paragraph which, while details the economic income into Scotland through hunting it also points out that more income is lost by private businesses (than hunting generates, through damage by deer).

So, Yes, Pebble could have a point that greater deer control operated through the Government might cost more, but could assist business and individuals which are suffering financial loss.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 14 Mar 2021, 6:53pm, edited 2 times in total.
Pebble
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by Pebble »

cycle tramp wrote:
So, Yes, Pebble could have a point that greater deer control operated through the Government might cost more, but could assist business and individuals which are suffering financial loss.

It is more than that though - I know someone who works for the Scottish Forestry Commission (or what ever it is called now) Controlling Deer numbers is his job, he does it properly clean kill every time, he is a professional and does not miss. He evaluates (cuts open) evry hind to see what fawns she is carrying (disturbing to watch) but very important in understanding how well the deer are doing. He covers a wide area and ensures there is a good manageable deer numbers.

So so different to amateurs getting their jollies pulling the trigger and watching the legs of an animal colapse underneath it. What a weird and disturbing hobby! oh i forget, they're putting food on the table.
Pebble
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by Pebble »

So what does shooting bring to Scotland, there is the uglification of the land with the muir burn to create some duo culture of heather and grouse, you can walk all day in these places and see no wildlife
Forrest Of Athol (the trees are long gone) Notice the scarring from the muir burn
Image
Glen Mark in Muir burn season
Image


But how different it could be, here is a bit of ancient Caledonia forestry in Glen Afric, at evry level from climate change to diversity in the flora and fauna this wins every time. And all we would really have to do is stop the muir burn and manage the deer by professionals, could speed it along with a bit of tree planting but it would just rejuvenate itself.
Image

why are we destroying our countryside for the shooting pleasures of a very few?
Last edited by Pebble on 15 Mar 2021, 9:31am, edited 3 times in total.
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cyclemad
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by cyclemad »

Zulu Eleven wrote:I have to say, I live with a few hundred yards from one of the busiest rifle ranges in the country - both civilian and military, plus machine guns - and to be honest you barely notice it. In fact the only thing you do really notice is the Grenade ranges, as on an overcast day they give a proper 'whoomph'.

moderators out there now for .50BMG too, so fairly easy to condition their use on the ranges in order to reduce noise footprint.


I have a muzzle brake on my AX50 ...cant justify nearly £600 for a mod'

:)
toontra
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by toontra »

Pebble wrote:So what does shooting bring to Scotland, there is the uglification of the land with the muir burn to create some duo culture of heather and grouse, you can walk all day in these places and see no wildlife
Forrest Of Athol (the trees are long gone)


That's what staggered me on my first off-road cycles over grouse moors in Deeside. You could literally cycle all day in mid-summer and not see or hear a single living thing. No birdsong, nothing moving for mile after countless mile over the barren landscape.

It's an obscenity against nature, and all to provide a handful of jobs for those prepared to cow-tow to the toffs - e.g. Prince Andrew's "normal shooting weekend" brigade. Is anyone really claiming that's a sustainable (ethically or ecologically) way to manage huge swathes of our heritage?
Oldjohnw
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by Oldjohnw »

I love Scotland but too much of it is sterile wasteland these days.

The Borders Forest seems to have done a good job in bringing a landscape back to life.
John
ChrisButch
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by ChrisButch »

The management of deer numbers is a complex subject, on which there has recently been a Scottish Government review. https://www.gov.scot/publications/management-wild-deer-scotland/.
The fundamental problem is that numbers on shooting estates are kept high artificially, and consequent overgrazing and habitat loss is inevitable. However, some recent community buyouts of shooting estates (Knoydart, North Harris etc) have shown that it's possible to keep numbers down and manage sustainably. Similarly with the policies of some of the more enlightened big landowners, such as in Glen Feshie, where natural forest is regenerating at astonishing speed without destroying the stalking.
Zulu Eleven
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by Zulu Eleven »

ChrisButch wrote:The management of deer numbers is a complex subject, on which there has recently been a Scottish Government review. https://www.gov.scot/publications/management-wild-deer-scotland/.
The fundamental problem is that numbers on shooting estates are kept high artificially, and consequent overgrazing and habitat loss is inevitable. However, some recent community buyouts of shooting estates (Knoydart, North Harris etc) have shown that it's possible to keep numbers down and manage sustainably. Similarly with the policies of some of the more enlightened big landowners, such as in Glen Feshie, where natural forest is regenerating at astonishing speed without destroying the stalking.



Agreed, its about sustainability - a lower population and therefore better condition often results in better trophy beasts anyway.

We've also seen some really poor management decisions out there by 'conservationists'* too - the Mar Lodge report is well worth reading, the NT's clear surprise that knocking seven bells out of the red population resulted in an explosion in the roe population, which were a whole load more difficult to deal with, I found particularly amusing. There is a lot to be done about better integrating woodland and deer - the 'if its brown, its down' attitude of many foresters hasn't helped, and we need more enlightened solutions than perimeter fencing in order to better accommodate the transient nature of red deer and their winter behaviour - eg. lots of small fence regeneration coupes better aligned with CCF rather than clearcut.

its also naive to talk about the whole of Scotland as if its a single and uniform habitat or ecosystem, or for that matter to talk about 'deer' as if there is a single solution that can be applied across the board that doesn't need very specific management options aligned to the particular habitat of behaviour of the different species .

However, after that brief sojourn, to take this back on point - the current situation regards the ongoing need for deer management in Scotland utterly undermines the previously argued point that:

guns have no place in my countryside for any purposes whatsoever.



At the same time, those who say they've been in the hills and didn't see any wildlife. I would politely suggest they don't know what they're looking at.


*to quote Ronnie Rose - "three years in Edinburgh being taught by someone else who's spent three years in Edinburgh"
Zulu Eleven
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Re: Samye Ling / Eskdalmuir

Post by Zulu Eleven »

Pebble wrote:So what does shooting bring to Scotland, there is the uglification of the land with the muir burn to create some duo culture of heather and grouse, you can walk all day in these places and see no wildlife
Forrest Of Athol (the trees are long gone) Notice the scarring from the muir burn

But how different it could be, here is a bit of ancient Caledonia forestry in Glen Afric, at evry level from climate change to diversity in the flora and fauna this wins every time. And all we would really have to do is stop the muir burn and manage the deer by professionals, could speed it along with a bit of tree planting but it would just rejuvenate itself.


Caledonian pine forest began to fragment and go into decline about 6-7000 years ago, particularly on the western side of Scotland, a change which is generally postulated as being connected to increased rainfall rather than human activity. Fragmentation seemingly increased from about 4000 years BP, and accelerated through to about 2000 years BP... Therefore these hills have been 'tree free' for at least a couple of thousand years...

In case you hadn't noticed, thats significantly before grouse shooting or red deer stalking became significant land uses
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