New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Stevek76 »

On the driving part, I'm rather neutral on the jail time sentencing, given the reluctance of juries to convict dangerous it seems rather moot. At any rate, many of the driving offences themselves are simply fudges to try and get around reluctance to convict under already applicable conventional laws such as manslaughter.

Also the difference between 14 years and life as a maximum is likely to make no difference at all on the propensity of people to commit the crime.

That seems to reflect a wider problem that this government's approach to being 'tough on crime' is to largely to bandy long sentences around rather than actually do something useful in a preventative sense. My main bugbear with driving sentences has long been the length of the bans.

My own view on driving is that the whole problem stems from whether you can do it or not effectively being a criminal matter for the courts.

We often criticise the 'momentary lapse of attention' defence but I think there's a very real question there of whether it's fair to treat such a lapse as a crime? Should they be driving? No, absolutely not, clearly they are a risk to other people when driving a car. But are they a criminal? Ultimately we've created a society where we effectively expect many people to drive to function in life and the reality is that a significant portion of them simply aren't capable, be it through immaturity or inability, of doing that without risking harm to others. They're not a risk elsewhere so throwing them in jail for longer is pointless.

The solution for this to me is to detach the suspension/revocation of driving licenses into a seperate, independent body (perhaps the DVLA?) with clear, no exceptions, standards and even looking at shorter bans for at fault collisions etc. Meanwhile transport provision generally needs an overhaul such that being unable to drive isn't seen as such a disadvantage to living.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Zulu Eleven
Posts: 235
Joined: 26 Oct 2018, 9:25pm

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Zulu Eleven »

Stevek76 wrote:On the driving part, I'm rather neutral on the jail time sentencing, given the reluctance of juries to convict dangerous it seems rather moot. At any rate, many of the driving offences themselves are simply fudges to try and get around reluctance to convict under already applicable conventional laws such as manslaughter.

Also the difference between 14 years and life as a maximum is likely to make no difference at all on the propensity of people to commit the crime.

That seems to reflect a wider problem that this government's approach to being 'tough on crime' is to largely to bandy long sentences around rather than actually do something useful in a preventative sense. My main bugbear with driving sentences has long been the length of the bans.

My own view on driving is that the whole problem stems from whether you can do it or not effectively being a criminal matter for the courts.

We often criticise the 'momentary lapse of attention' defence but I think there's a very real question there of whether it's fair to treat such a lapse as a crime? Should they be driving? No, absolutely not, clearly they are a risk to other people when driving a car. But are they a criminal? Ultimately we've created a society where we effectively expect many people to drive to function in life and the reality is that a significant portion of them simply aren't capable, be it through immaturity or inability, of doing that without risking harm to others. They're not a risk elsewhere so throwing them in jail for longer is pointless.

The solution for this to me is to detach the suspension/revocation of driving licenses into a seperate, independent body (perhaps the DVLA?) with clear, no exceptions, standards and even looking at shorter bans for at fault collisions etc. Meanwhile transport provision generally needs an overhaul such that being unable to drive isn't seen as such a disadvantage to living.



I think there’s a lot to be said for this point of view. It does seem very odd that with offences like death by careless driving we are, ultimately, sentencing according to the outcome rather than the culpability and seriousness of the offence.

Let’s look at it this way - you and I get in separate, identical cars, drive along identical roads, and happen to pull out of a side road without looking properly. In my case I’m hit by another car and the driver is uninjured, in your case you are hit by a motorbike and the rider dies.

This is terrible, and we have both clearly been responsible for the accidents and what follows, which in one case is clearly a human tragedy

But Is it really right that we both get a disproportionately different sentences?
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Pete Owens »

Same is the case if you hit someone with any other object. If they die its murder if they survive it is a lesser charge.
Zulu Eleven
Posts: 235
Joined: 26 Oct 2018, 9:25pm

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Zulu Eleven »

Pete Owens wrote:Same is the case if you hit someone with any other object. If they die its murder if they survive it is a lesser charge.



Not really though, is it?

Murder requires intent to cause death or serious harm - without that it’s manslaughter - Plus of course various defences like self defence, loss of control (eg provocation), diminished responsibility etc.

all of which are related to culpability and intent. A ‘single punch’ manslaughter is likely to end up with a lower sentence than a GBH or attempted murder
cycle tramp
Posts: 3531
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by cycle tramp »

Zulu Eleven wrote:
Let’s look at it this way - you and I get in separate, identical cars, drive along identical roads, and happen to pull out of a side road without looking properly. In my case I’m hit by another car and the driver is uninjured, in your case you are hit by a motorbike and the rider dies.

This is terrible, and we have both clearly been responsible for the accidents and what follows, which in one case is clearly a human tragedy

But Is it really right that we both get a disproportionately different sentences?


Yes - because the consequences of the action should be taken into consideration. In the case of the latter, a person has died, a family member has been lost and a life which may have held great potential has been cut short. To argue for anything less of full consideration of the consequences enforces the social narrative that the life which was taken, held no value and increases the likelihood of more carelessness actions. Let us be very clear, driving a motor vehicle is a serious undertaking and should be considered as such. With this in mind ever action should be considered and planned.

However society also has to ask itself is there any value to placing non violent offenders in prison. Would society not be better off extending community service, perhaps to the point where we begin to use community service to aid other countries?.
...sort of 'you have been found guilty of death by dangerous driving. I sentence you to the maximum penalty and you will be flown to Afghanistan to clear 5 square miles of landmines. Whereby you will learn the true value of care and attention. May God have mercy on your soul'.
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
cycle tramp
Posts: 3531
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by cycle tramp »

Stevek76 wrote:But are they a criminal? Ultimately we've created a society where we effectively expect many people to drive to function in life and the reality is that a significant portion of them simply aren't capable, be it through immaturity or inability, of doing that without risking harm to others. They're not a risk elsewhere so throwing them in jail for longer is pointless.


Yes, in answer to the first. The act of breaking the law defines you as such. In this case society through its laws insist that a person driving any vehicle (no matter as to which method the said vehicle is being propelled) does so carefully, and with regards to others. It is clearly stated, and if you pass your driving test, then it has been shown that you understood that. If you drive below the standard of driving exhibited through your driving test, then you may wish to consider whether you should be driving.

No, in regards to your last statement. Longer sentences act as a greater deterrent, as understood by this Government. Hence the reason for this bill
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Jdsk »

Zulu Eleven wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:Same is the case if you hit someone with any other object. If they die its murder if they survive it is a lesser charge.

Not really though, is it?

Murder requires intent to cause death or serious harm - without that it’s manslaughter - Plus of course various defences like self defence, loss of control (eg provocation), diminished responsibility etc.

Exactly. As discussed in the question of intent in the preceding posts.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Jdsk »

Stevek76 wrote:The solution for this to me is to detach the suspension/revocation of driving licenses into a seperate, independent body (perhaps the DVLA?) with clear, no exceptions, standards and even looking at shorter bans for at fault collisions etc.

I don't know what structure would be best, but I strongly support this approach... consider driving on public roads as a privilege and regulate accordingly. That's instead of the current system based on criminal justice, which should of course remain available when needed.

Licensing of aircraft pilots might be a constructive analogy.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Jdsk »

Stevek76 wrote:I think certainly the present government is demonstrating quite how imbalanced our power setup is in favour of the executive and how fragile the constitutional setup is. It appears to have worked mostly far more in the past by simply being one big gentleman's agreement, as soon as someone who sees no value in playing fair is in charge.

Yes. Our reliance on "good chaps" has come back to bite us.

What we're seeing at the moment is quite different from the familiar left/right, lower tax/higher tax, private/public, liberal/conservative axes, positions and arguments.

Jonathan
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Stevek76 »

cycle tramp wrote:Yes, in answer to the first. The act of breaking the law defines you as such.


Except what is effectively jury nullification, which is what happens here. Enough of the jury are convinced by the lapse argument, don't consider themselves to be criminals and therefore don't convict.

Longer sentences act as a greater deterrent, as understood by this Government. Hence the reason for this bill


citation needed. Any actual evidence that this works? Comparing the US to, say, Norway, would indicate it doesn't help at all. The countries with the greatest success in reducing crime are those that concentrate on the preventative measures and then more on the rehabilitation/restorative sentencing.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Sentencing
6.10 If the offence of public nuisance is restated in statutory form, it may be desirable to consider at the same time whether to alter the sentencing powers, for example by providing for a fixed maximum sentence. This is a matter to be considered by the Government department sponsoring any legislation resulting from our proposals.
6.11 We envisage that the offence of public nuisance, with the strengthened fault element as proposed, will be used mainly for instances of wilful and serious misbehaviour for which the existing specialised statutory offences are not adequate. Any fixed maximum sentence provided by statute should therefore be considerably in excess of that for the specialised offences.

However the use of a law is envisaged, there is always a pull to use it in other circumstances. The more generally worded it is, the greater the range of unenvisaged applications.
Grumpy-Grandad
Posts: 69
Joined: 2 Apr 2021, 11:25am
Location: Crewe, Cheshire

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Grumpy-Grandad »

thirdcrank wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:Thanks, Third Crank. Good to see you back in the tent.


......... I've no experience of TPAC which seems to be a recent innovation, but I don't see including it in legislation as a way of providing a loophole for those trained to carry it out.


TPAC is nothing new. It was in regular use before I retired some 15yrs ago :D
Steve
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by thirdcrank »

When I say "seems to be recent" I'm referring to anything after I retired "almost a quarter of a century ago."

Here's a recent example of what's being discussed (I think.)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-englan ... m-56588847

I didn't volunteer for the retired police officer role on here and I can see the benefits of keeping schtum and drawing the pension.
Grumpy-Grandad
Posts: 69
Joined: 2 Apr 2021, 11:25am
Location: Crewe, Cheshire

Re: New bill makes it harder to prosecute police for dangerous driving.

Post by Grumpy-Grandad »

thirdcrank wrote:When I say "seems to be recent" I'm referring to anything after I retired "almost a quarter of a century ago."

Here's a recent example of what's being discussed (I think.)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-englan ... m-56588847

I didn't volunteer for the retired police officer role on here and I can see the benefits of keeping schtum and drawing the pension.


The 'tactical stop' is fine with me as long as its used when there is no likelihood of injury to anyone other than in the target vehicle :D
.
Hoorah for the pension :wink:
Steve
Post Reply