Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Jdsk wrote:PS: If going down that road (!) I'd use the technology to limit the speed rather than to detect and punish.

With an override on kick down, albeit one that was noted...

People might insist on that, but "accelerating out of trouble" is very rarely an appropriate or necessary response.

Jonathan
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Bmblbzzz »

We're going down the black box road without legislation, due to pressure from insurance companies. So far it's for young drivers and certain others, it will become more widespread. In the USA the box is often in the car from new, apparently (I guess there must be some standard?).
Nigel
Posts: 463
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 6:29pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Nigel »

Jdsk wrote:Yes, the technology is available. Now... how would anyone convince other people?

Jonathan

PS: If going down that road (!) I'd use the technology to limit the speed rather than to detect and punish.


Supposed to be "coming 2022" from an EU agreed standard on speed limiters. The UK is currently committed to follow EU vehicle safety rules.

The EU standard requires all new cars sold after the date to have an active speed limit device in the car - a mixture of GPS mapping and camera to read limit signs. An over-ride button is permitted, but it has to be a driver decision (I think each time the car is used) to over-ride.

The required tech is present in cars already; my 2015 car has enough tech in it to implement the system (though an update to the GPS map data would help for accuracy), it can tell me the speed limit everywhere (so knows what the map says the limits are), it can read the road signs from the forward camera in the windscreen (it reads the 20's near me as I drive past them, changing the displayed limit down to 20 from what it previously knew from the out-of-date GPS data), and it has a speed limiter option linked to the cruise control. The only missing step is a software link from its knowledge of the speed limits and the speed limit function in the car.
There is a problem in summer when councils don't cut hedges and speed signs disappear in the greenery. The camera doesn't see them. But the GPS map still has data, which is largely OK (except for blanket changes from 30 down to 20 locally, where seeing the signs is needed).


- Nigel
Jdsk
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote:We're going down the black box road without legislation, due to pressure from insurance companies. So far it's for young drivers and certain others, it will become more widespread. In the USA the box is often in the car from new, apparently (I guess there must be some standard?).

And eg Teslas are recording and communicating all of the time.

Jonathan
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Adaptive Speed Assistance, I think that's called. It's not an override button, it's just the way the limiter reacts to the accelerator. It will allow you to exceed the speed limit, which it is supposed to know through, I think, a combination of GPS and cameras which read speed limit signs, but there will be "feedback" such as juddering through the accelerator pedal.

Again, commercial pressures will mean this is applied in UK and other non-EU countries of Europe from Iceland to Turkey.
Jdsk
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Jdsk »

"Roadmap for the deployment of automated driving in the European Union"
https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_Automated_Driving_Roadmap.pdf

Jonathan
Pebble
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Pebble »

Jdsk wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Jdsk wrote:PS: If going down that road (!) I'd use the technology to limit the speed rather than to detect and punish.

With an override on kick down, albeit one that was noted...

People might insist on that, but "accelerating out of trouble" is very rarely an appropriate or necessary response.

Jonathan

I can't really think of a valid situation let alone a one that could arise in a built up area.

----

anyway back to the new 20mph limits. Disappointingly the only people observing the new limit are those careful and consideraate drivers who never caused cyclists any grief in the first place. The drivers who make cycling unpleasant are still out there 30+ whilst playing with a mobile phone. We would never of needed the 20 if the police had mercilessly enforced the 30. The new 20 is just penalising the good without making the roads any more welcoming to cyclists.
thirdcrank
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by thirdcrank »

I'm in favour of anything that really works to keep speeds down. With any sort of automatic speed limiter, it must imply some form of enforcement if there's a manual override. Enforcement depends on evidence and any weaknesses in that where the system is unreliable at identifying the correct speed limit will risk opening the loopholes. If something gets a reputation for unreliability - justified or not - it will be dismissed. This may be different in places with different legal systems but in all parts of the UK, the standard of criminal proof is high.

It doesn't necessarily help if the majority observe the lower limit if that encourages the "can't-touch-you-for-it" brigade to get even more impatient, especially if the official line is no need for expensive enforcement if the in-car speed limiters are doing the job (when they aren't.)
Mike Sales
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Mike Sales »

Pebble wrote: The new 20 is just penalising the good without making the roads any more welcoming to cyclists.


If drivers break the law they are penalising themselves. Unless you mean that having to drive at less than 20 mph is penal in itself.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by thirdcrank »

I thought what Pebble was saying was clear enough, even if the lingo is open to discussion.
Mike Sales
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Mike Sales »

thirdcrank wrote:I thought what Pebble was saying was clear enough, even if the lingo is open to discussion.


I'm sorry, I am not clear on how good drivers would be penalised.

I'd also like to include pedestrians amongst those who don't, or do, benefit.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Pebble
Posts: 1934
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Pebble »

Mike Sales wrote:
Pebble wrote: The new 20 is just penalising the good without making the roads any more welcoming to cyclists.


If drivers break the law they are penalising themselves. Unless you mean that having to drive at less than 20 mph is penal in itself.

may be I should of used the word inconvenienced, at times on wide deserted arterial routes into town 20 is unrealistically slow. And the only ones doing 20 are those drivers who never caused any problems for vulnerable road users in thee first place.

A a cyclist and a pedestrian I don't think the new 20 limit is bringing any benefits, those who were always careful drivers continue to be careful drivers, and those that have never cared less about rules continue in the same vein. You're as likely to have to endure dangerous uncaring drivers now as you were before the new 20 was introduced.

I campaigned for and I still welcome the new 20 but it needs enforcement. It is the bad drivers that need to change their ways, not the good ones.
Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Mike Sales »

Pebble wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Pebble wrote: The new 20 is just penalising the good without making the roads any more welcoming to cyclists.


If drivers break the law they are penalising themselves. Unless you mean that having to drive at less than 20 mph is penal in itself.

may be I should of used the word inconvenienced, at times on wide deserted arterial routes into town 20 is unrealistically slow. And the only ones doing 20 are those drivers who never caused any problems for vulnerable road users in thee first place.

A a cyclist and a pedestrian I don't think the new 20 limit is bringing any benefits, those who were always careful drivers continue to be careful drivers, and those that have never cared less about rules continue in the same vein. You're as likely to have to endure dangerous uncaring drivers now as you were before the new 20 was introduced.

I campaigned for and I still welcome the new 20 but it needs enforcement. It is the bad drivers that need to change their ways, not the good ones.



I am afraid that making the roads more convenient and even safer for more vulnerable road users is going to inconvenience drivers. They will see this as penalisation, a war against motorists etc.
Drivers see the roads as their domain, to drive on as they see fit. 20 mph zones are part of an effort to make the roads fit for other types of user, for reasons I do not need to rehearse.
Even "careful drivers" who drive at the usual speeds on the public highway are complicit in making the road into the preserve
motors, in discouraging the use of the road by other modes. One cannot easily distinguish them from uncaring drivers.
The effort to make the roads civilised needs enforcement, of course. I tend to favour the black box speed limiter idea.
The effort needs to take space away from motor vehicles too. Building more and faster roads which are designed for a high throughput of motors needs to stop now too.
I found, in my short driving career, that keeping to the speed limit was a realistic target, whatever the limit was.
20 mph zones are a necessary part of the change we need, but not a sufficient one. I welcome all steps on the way.
Tackling your uncaring drivers is needed too. I would like to see car-crushing as a penalty for driving whilst banned, for instance. (Take the driver out first!)
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Pebble
Posts: 1934
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Pebble »

Mike Sales wrote:
Pebble wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
If drivers break the law they are penalising themselves. Unless you mean that having to drive at less than 20 mph is penal in itself.

may be I should of used the word inconvenienced, at times on wide deserted arterial routes into town 20 is unrealistically slow. And the only ones doing 20 are those drivers who never caused any problems for vulnerable road users in thee first place.

A a cyclist and a pedestrian I don't think the new 20 limit is bringing any benefits, those who were always careful drivers continue to be careful drivers, and those that have never cared less about rules continue in the same vein. You're as likely to have to endure dangerous uncaring drivers now as you were before the new 20 was introduced.

I campaigned for and I still welcome the new 20 but it needs enforcement. It is the bad drivers that need to change their ways, not the good ones.



I am afraid that making the roads more convenient and even safer for more vulnerable road users is going to inconvenience drivers. They will see this as penalisation, a war against motorists etc.

and that is absolutely fine by me, but it is pointless if those we need to slow down and be more careful are going to carry on as usual.

Speed limiters connected to GPS and speed limits would be fantastic, but there will never be any law to retrofit, so even if we introduced on all new cars sold from tomorrow it would be 8 years before it was on 50% of all cars, so yes, do it, but we need something else in the mean time

For me the 20 limit trial in the borders will fail in its objective to get more people walking and cycling unless they start enforcing it.
Auchmill
Posts: 346
Joined: 17 Sep 2007, 3:01pm
Location: Selkirk

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Auchmill »

I live near Selkirk in the Borders. The Council stated when they adopted the 20mp scheme that it would not be enforced.

Before it was implemented they asked for views from the public. These are available on the Council website. I was disappointed that they thought 20mph limits in towns and villages would promote cycling, rather than dedicated bike lanes, for example. The 20mph limit could have been brought in without waiting for Government money, as some other Councils have done.

However, I think 20 is plenty as the evidence suggests that pedestrians & cyclists hit by vehicles are less likely to die than if hit at 30. As far as I know 30 is an arbitrary number not informed by any science. The only EU country I have cycled in is Spain, during winters when we go there for 3 months, in normal times. They have low limits, lots of pedestrian crossings combined with speed bumps in every village & town where is it mandatory for vehicles of all types to stop if someone is intending to cross, the 1.5 metre overtaking law, fantastic road surfaces, miles and miles of Via Verdes, drivers who wait patiently to overtake a cyclist, quite a lot of pedestrianised streets and cycle lanes, much quieter roads etc etc, oh, and much better weather. I don't know if the cycle accident stats are better or worse.

Although this "pop up" scheme is better than nothing we really need a government transport policy that prioritises, public transport, walking, cycling and makes driving a car more expensive and more onerous with a "spy in the cab" to catch and fine errant drivers, builds no more new roads and concentrates on repairing the appalling state of many of our roads. To get out on our bikes and trikes we have to endure a road that is more like driving on cobbles than tarmac. that is not going to get people taking up cycling.
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