Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

[Pebble]

I have not seen or heard of anyone else seeing it been enforced - in fact I have not seen any police anywhere so far this year.

The data linked to earlier suggesting average speeds now around 26mph. I wonder how much this is skewed by cars travelling around in small convoy trains. It is so noticeable, one car doing 20 and half a dozen or more impatiently driving unnaturally close behind. I wonder what the average speed would be of individual cars - there is without doubt plenty still driving at 30 to 40.

I even had a taxi tailgating me, he beeped his horn and he was holding a 30 sign up to his windscreen (specially printed so as I could read it through the mirror) He obviously isnt impressed with the 20mph idea - LOL

[thirdcrank]

One thing that seems obvious to me is that road congestion is an effective form of traffic "calming" even if many people end up less than calm. It certainly tends to slow traffic overall, but it can cause bad driving eg dangerous overtaking, failure to give way properly and inappropriate speed when a road is uncongested.

My impression is that traffic speeds have increased during lockdown with lighter traffic, especially in the first lockdown.

So, the need is for something to deter that frustration / risk-taking.

I live on a suburban cul-de-sac which is a branch off a cul-de-sac. I'd say an appropriate speed here would be 10mph max., slower on the now rare occasions when there are children playing out. Within the last couple of years we've had a signed 20mph limit installed which has made no obvious difference and I regularly see vehicles zipping by at what I'd estimate at 35ish mph. Driving in or out I often find I'm tailgated.

I'm an advocate of more traffic enforcement but I cannot see how "my" 20mph limit might be enforced.

[VinceLedge]

The blanket application of 20mph in Borders towns doesn't seem to work well from what I have seen whilst cycling and driving.
The limit is too low on some roads leading into towns and through some villages (especially those that are deserted except at school drop off times. Everyone knows there is no way they can be effectively enforced in the Borders so will continue to make their own mind up whether to ignore them!
It means that on some hills you have to brake all the way on a bike , in areas where there is little or no pedestrian traffic.
20mph restrictions would be much more likely to be followed if they are in areas where there is reasonable walking and cycling levels likely, or where there is a particular risk area.

[Pebble]

It is the long arterial roads in and out of town where these speed limits need to be observed the most. The whole idea of the 20mph is to try and make the roads feel more safe to encourage cycling as a means of transport. In many many cases to cycle from home to the town centre or other amenities within town you have to use these arterial routes. We will never now if the 20mph trial will be a success unless the speed limits are enforced, shame on the police for not getting involved, they would only need dish out a few dozen tickets a week and word would soon get around. Half an hours work and you could easy get a dozen out of the first 20 cars that came along (and at least two would be playing with their phones so another offence nailed)

[Jdsk]

Does anyone know the study design: any controls (other than historic) and any crossovers?

And is there any independent evaluation?

"The trial has been run in conjunction with Edinburgh Napier University, who were appointed to formally and independently evaluate the trial."
https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/news/article/4042/preliminary_road_traffic_data_made_public_ahead_of_20mph_trial_consultation

Good.

Jonathan

[thirdcrank]

I must have posted before that traditional evaluations of speed limits in terms compliance have concentrated on percentiles and I cannot remember if that is 85%. IMO the big point is that the real problem isn't the people who comply "more or less" but the others who drive at silly speeds taking silly risks - and that includes some of the normally compliant who go faster as they feel the need arises.

Another thing is casualty counting. While every casualty is regrettable the absence of casualties does not say much about true safety as the vulnerable users especially children may be being kept off the roads. ie Truly safer roads may have more casualties as vulnerable users become more numerous.

[Bmblbzzz]

One thing that seems obvious to me is that road congestion is an effective form of traffic "calming" even if many people end up less than calm. It certainly tends to slow traffic overall, but it can cause bad driving eg dangerous overtaking, failure to give way properly and inappropriate speed when a road is uncongested.

And this is why traffic calming has to be about more than reducing speed. It has to alter attitudes and reduce overall volumes of traffic.

It means that on some hills you have to brake all the way on a bike , in areas where there is little or no pedestrian traffic.

Speed limits only apply to motorized traffic, so if you felt it appropriate to do over 20mph down those hills before, you can carry on. But...

It is the long arterial roads in and out of town where these speed limits need to be observed the most. The whole idea of the 20mph is to try and make the roads feel more safe to encourage cycling as a means of transport. In many many cases to cycle from home to the town centre or other amenities within town you have to use these arterial routes.

And not only cycling but walking and non-traffic uses of roads, such as kids playing like Third Crank mentions (admittedly this is unlikely on arterial roads).

[Jdsk]

I must have posted before that traditional evaluations of speed limits in terms compliance have concentrated on percentiles and I cannot remember if that is 85%.

Yes, the 85th centile speed is widely used for setting limits, eg:
https://www.lcc.org.uk/pages/tfl-quality-criteria

It's highly controversial and this is an observation not a justification.

Jonathan

[Nigel]

My observations (living in the Scottish Borders) is that traffic speeds are down a bit, so the survey matches what I see.

I'm not sure that the Borders would translate that well to other areas. Towns are small, traffic levels are low - small population over a very big area.

As others have said, there is no enforcement. There are a handful of big automatic signs with green numbers up to 20, and then flashing red speed numbers above (but those are not speed trap cameras). The effect of those who choose to drive at the new limits cause those behind to slow down.

There is a rise in the number of "everyday" bikes seen around, either taking some exercise, or going into town. A fair number of those are "upright electric assist". If they're also drivers at other times, then they might connect the "actually do 20" as making their cycling more pleasant.

When driving, I don't find it particularly problematic. Just engage brain for 20 rather than 30, and the trip through the town will be slightly slower. Most Border's towns have tight bits, parked cars, potholes and other things meaning 30 wasn't an achievable speed before.


- Nigel

[thirdcrank]

Nigel

Thanks for that which fits in with what might be expected.

[wjhall]

Here in Bristol, there is undoubtedly enforcement. Speed camera vans may not appear frequently, but they do appear, and reappear in the same places. I suspect that in one location near me they are also using a crest for concealement.

Which unfortunately does not mean that some people do not have very odd ideas about what 20 mph is, but there is an observable number of people observing the limit.

[thirdcrank]

One thing that's obvious - to me - is that the ways of enforcing speed limits have changed. There was a time when the only practical methods were radar the size of a sideboard or following suspected speeders in a patrol car over a distance, typically 4/10 mile. VASCAR arrived a bit more recently. It's true that official guidance said that speed limits could only be set if the police agreed they could be enforced, but it should be remembered that that only applied to limits which weren't national limits ie defined by lampposts.

That's changed in that you don't normally need police to play any part in speed enforcement using cameras. IMO, it would be logical to authorise traffic authorities to set and enforce speed limits without reference to the police.

That doesn't solve the problem of how you deal with drivers who chose to speed on roads like quiet residential streets.

[Bmblbzzz]

One thing that's obvious - to me - is that the ways of enforcing speed limits have changed. There was a time when the only practical methods were radar the size of a sideboard or following suspected speeders in a patrol car over a distance, typically 4/10 mile. VASCAR arrived a bit more recently. It's true that official guidance said that speed limits could only be set if the police agreed they could be enforced, but it should be remembered that that only applied to limits which weren't national limits ie defined by lampposts.

That's changed in that you don't normally need police to play any part in speed enforcement using cameras. IMO, it would be logical to authorise traffic authorities to set and enforce speed limits without reference to the police.

That doesn't solve the problem of how you deal with drivers who chose to speed on roads like quiet residential streets.

Compulsory black box tracking and appropriate speed limits, say 15mph in such a street.

[Jdsk]

Yes, the technology is available. Now... how would anyone convince other people?

Jonathan

PS: If going down that road (!) I'd use the technology to limit the speed rather than to detect and punish.

[[XAP]Bob]

Yes, the technology is available. Now... how would anyone convince other people?

Jonathan

PS: If going down that road (!) I'd use the technology to limit the speed rather than to detect and punish.

With an override on kick down, albeit one that was noted...