To make the roads safer - first remove the regulation

[workhard]

There are a couple of threads elsewhere where the debate on road safety, what it is, how to obtain it, how to enforce it have raged quite fiercely. One of the themes that emerged is what would happen if you took the traffic lights, etc., away.

I'd invite everyone to do some reading about the traffic management, or rather the traffic non-management, happening in a number of towns and villages across Europe at the moment.

Here are two starters for 10

Drachten
Bohmte

There may well be countless others that my casual lunchtime googling have failed to uncover. I know examples in England include Horsham's Carfax and Poundbury and Kensington High St

Have any of our intrepid touring members cycled anywhere where such measures have been implemented. Did they seem worthwhile? Did you feel safer? Were you in fact safer?

Where else are these ideas being applied?Could they be applied more widely? Can you really run a town on the idea of just two rules; 30 (20 pref) mph speed limit and give way to the right?

[kwackers]

"I wouldn't interfere with the right of people to buy the car they want, but nor should the government have to solve the problems they make with their choices."

There's an entire philosophy in there!

[Si]

S'funny, I was just wondering, this morning, how the experiment at Exibition St worked out (all signs and paint removed from the road)? Would be interested to hear from anyone who has been there lately?

[Nerazzurri]

What an interesting read. And great to see a novel, and counter-intuitive, idea being so successful.

My only worry would be that the caution being exhibited at the junction is purely down to people encountering the unknown (which is touched on in one of the articles). Maybe once they become accustomed to it they'll incline back to their old ways.

[AlanD]

Making roads safer, Humm.....

How about ones firstborn securely strapped across the bonnet and a properly adjusted 'chest spike' on the steering wheel.

That was a joke. On a more serious note, I do wonder if motorists would drive more humbly (safely) if their cars did not have horns (meaning the things that go BLAHHH, not the things on bulls)

Regards, Alan

[CJ]

Sure it feels safer to ride in those continental towns where they've taken away all the signs and kerbs and paint, but it feels safer to ride anywhere in those countries than it does in Little Blighty.

That is because the legal principle of holding the driver of a motor vehicle primarily responsible for any collision with any more vulnerable road user, is enshrined in the traffic law and motoring culture of those countries. Whereas over here ... you know how it is!

Put simply, those continental facilities work because the drivers are motivated to be just as careful not to hit a bike or ped, as the latter are to avoid being hit.

The British experiments may also work, for different reasons. The only one I know much about is Seven Dials, where there's so much pedestrian traffic that motor vehicles are reduced to a crawl anyway, and likewise cycles! I doubt that they could be extended to areas with less pedestrian footfall due to the relative carelessness exhibited by British drivers around pedestrians and cyclists, particularly the latter.

[andymiller]

Sure it feels safer to ride in those continental towns where they've taken away all the signs and kerbs and paint, but it feels safer to ride anywhere in those countries than it does in Little Blighty.

That is because the legal principle of holding the driver of a motor vehicle primarily responsible for any collision with any more vulnerable road user, is enshrined in the traffic law and motoring culture of those countries. Whereas over here ... you know how it is!

Put simply, those continental facilities work because the drivers are motivated to be just as careful not to hit a bike or ped, as the latter are to avoid being hit.

The British experiments may also work, for different reasons. The only one I know much about is Seven Dials, where there's so much pedestrian traffic that motor vehicles are reduced to a crawl anyway, and likewise cycles! I doubt that they could be extended to areas with less pedestrian footfall due to the relative carelessness exhibited by British drivers around pedestrians and cyclists, particularly the latter.

I don't think British drivers are more disposed to run people over than (say) their Dutch counterparts.

The reason these experiments seem to work is because they get people out of the territorial mindset - 'this is my road, get out of the way'.

It also seems to have the same beneficial effects on cyclists.

[kwackers]

The reason these experiments seem to work is because they get people out of the territorial mindset - 'this is my road, get out of the way'.

It also seems to have the same beneficial effects on cyclists.

A mindset which we have in bucketloads. Amazingly having driven around the States even they have a more relaxed and less territorial mindset.

They have four way junctions were you take it in turns to leave on a first arrived first to leave basis and they seem to work very well, can you imagine the carnage over here if we introduced them?

[CJ]

I don't think British drivers are more disposed to run people over than (say) their Dutch counterparts.

I don't think you can ever have cycled in Holland. For someone accustomed to British driving behavior the difference is nothing short of amazing. Rather than having your right-of-way challenged and blocked, drivers back away, literally, from any possible confrontation. During the first few km of any holiday in Holland, Denmark, or Germany I'll have one or two nervous stand-offs, where I slow down for a car that has right of way but the driver insists I go first! I find it takes most of the first day to shake off the British angst, to relax into the swing of things and simply expect the cars to part before me like the Red Sea, like they do!

Amazingly having driven around the States even they have a more relaxed and less territorial mindset.

According to an American colleague, the USA has a similar legal presumption of driver responsibility to that which applies in those other European countries, except that observance and enforcement varies from place to place.

I daresay there's a corellation with places where drivers are motivated to look out for peds and bikes and a generally more courteous driving style. Street design surely helps, but legislation to protect the vulnerable from bullying by the powerful is the foundation upon which an equitable society and safe streets are built.

[andymiller]

I don't think British drivers are more disposed to run people over than (say) their Dutch counterparts.

I don't think you can ever have cycled in Holland. For someone accustomed to British driving behavior the difference is nothing short of amazing. Rather than having your right-of-way challenged and blocked, drivers back away, literally, from any possible confrontation. During the first few km of any holiday in Holland, Denmark, or Germany I'll have one or two nervous stand-offs, where I slow down for a car that has right of way but the driver insists I go first! I find it takes most of the first day to shake off the British angst, to relax into the swing of things and simply expect the cars to part before me like the Red Sea, like they do!

Amazingly having driven around the States even they have a more relaxed and less territorial mindset.

According to an American colleague, the USA has a similar legal presumption of driver responsibility to that which applies in those other European countries, except that observance and enforcement varies from place to place.

I daresay there's a corellation with places where drivers are motivated to look out for peds and bikes and a generally more courteous driving style. Street design surely helps, but legislation to protect the vulnerable from bullying by the powerful is the foundation upon which an equitable society and safe streets are built.

Well I have ridden in Amsterdam if that counts.

I ride in London almost every day, and I find drivers almost universally considerate. I know it's not a scientific test, but I find myself virtually everyday acknowledging courteous behaviour, and very rarely berating someone. Most of the examples of discourteous and stupid behaviour that I see are from cyclists.

Outside London I find drivers even more courteous - eg I end up waving drivers to pass me in cases where I can see they have plenty of passing room but they are holding back.

Sorry, I know it isn't the fashionable view on here, but I'm just not buying the idea that British drivers are horrible nasty meanies while drivers elsewhere are patient, tolerant angels.

[kwackers]

Well I have ridden in Amsterdam if that counts.

I ride in London almost every day, and I find drivers almost universally considerate. I know it's not a scientific test, but I find myself virtually everyday acknowledging courteous behaviour, and very rarely berating someone. Most of the examples of discourteous and stupid behaviour that I see are from cyclists.

Outside London I find drivers even more courteous - eg I end up waving drivers to pass me in cases where I can see they have plenty of passing room but they are holding back.

Sorry, I know it isn't the fashionable view on here, but I'm just not buying the idea that British drivers are horrible nasty meanies while drivers elsewhere are patient, tolerant angels.

Everyone's observations are biased towards what they expect, if you expect decent behaviour then that view will be re-enforced every time someone behaves well, similarly if you expect bad behaviour.

I have on average one incident of bad driving typically every two days, however in reality I probably interact with a couple of hundred so what does that mean?

Incidentally todays was on the way home, as I turned left at some lights (middle of the lane, following a 4x4 through in slow moving traffic). A van that was behind me overtook on the apex of the bend and then forced me over to the side.
So much for good lane placement.

[Cyclenut]

I'm just not buying the idea that British drivers are horrible nasty meanies while drivers elsewhere are patient, tolerant angels.

That would be a gross exaggeration of the actual situation. Like you I find most British drivers to be reasonably considerate, it's only the occasional one that will use their car in a bullying manner. This happens more or less often depending upon where and when and how you ride. But it hardly ever happens at all in those other countries.

Last year we spent a fortnight cycling in Germany, riding an average of 70km per day in two different areas. In that entire time we experienced one single instance of unpleasant driver behaviour (loud revving behind and close passing). I think in Britain you can expect that to happen at least once every hundred miles.

And Dutch/German/Danish are not merely considerate, they do things to accomodate cyclists that are almost unheard of over here. How often, in Britain, when you cycle up a side road with the intention of entering or crossing the main road ahead, does a car on that main road, with an open road ahead of it, slow down or stop to let you out? This extraordinary courtesy was extended to us several times a day in Germany.

It's not just British cyclists, with all our natural-born-victim and grass-is-greener hang-ups who notice this continental difference. When you talk to visiting Dutch or German or even French cycletourists they say how apalled they by the way British drivers drive around them. The thing they comment most is the impatience, the reluctance to wait behind until the road is clear enough to pass with plenty of room.

Overtaking behaviour on a two-lane road is a litmus test. Drivers fall into three categories:
1. Who will always wait until the opposing lane is clear and use the whole road to give the cyclist plenty of clearance.
2. Who will give a cyclist plenty of space if the road is clear, but still pass, if it isn't, giving less space.
3. Who pass the cyclist uncomfortably close in all circumstances.

Category 1 are the majority in all countries I've ever cycled in. I wouldn't like to ride anywhere they weren't. Category 3 are a thankfully tiny minority even in Britain, but not as tiny as they were (probably thanks to the climate of cyclist villification whipped up by certain newspaper columnists). Category 2 is the one that, whilst still a minority, is much too numerous for comfort in Britain, relative to the continent.

I'm not saying Dutch or German drivers are nicer people, I'm sure they are just as keen to get past that cyclist who's holding them up as the average Brit. The difference is that the penalties over there, in the event that the cyclist wobbles whilst they're squeezing by, are so expensive and inconvenient that it's never worth taking the risk.

Basically, unless the driver can prove that the cyclist deliberately caused the collision, they're in deep trouble.

That's why they give way to cyclists approaching from side roads. Over there the SMIDSY boot is on the other foot. Better to wait until that cyclist has emerged and gone on his way, than risk that he might cannon into the side of the car!

It is often said that if you get passed unusually close by a car in France, it'll have British plates. And at the CTC we sometimes hear amusing cases of British drivers getting their comeuppance abroad. A Scottish CTC couple reported how they'd been passed a bit close, nothing unusual for UK, by a British car in Switzerland. They shortly came upon this car stopped by a traffic cop who'd witnessed the unremarkable event. They were just as surprised as the driver, but a lot more delighted, to discover that passing a cyclist closer than 1.5m in Switzerland attracts a heavy on-the-spot fine, in cash, no quibbles. The driver kicked up such an indignant fuss that he was bundled into the squad car and taken down the station to face a more serious charge, or a cooling off in the cells, we never found out. Our members just continued on their merry way, reasured that they had the protection of the law, abroad if not at home!

[andymiller]

It is often said that if you get passed unusually close by a car in France, it'll have British plates. And at the CTC we sometimes hear amusing cases of British drivers getting their comeuppance abroad. A Scottish CTC couple reported how they'd been passed a bit close, nothing unusual for UK, by a British car in Switzerland. They shortly came upon this car stopped by a traffic cop who'd witnessed the unremarkable event. They were just as surprised as the driver, but a lot more delighted, to discover that passing a cyclist closer than 1.5m in Switzerland attracts a heavy on-the-spot fine, in cash, no quibbles. The driver kicked up such an indignant fuss that he was bundled into the squad car and taken down the station to face a more serious charge, or a cooling off in the cells, we never found out. Our members just continued on their merry way, reasured that they had the protection of the law, abroad if not at home!

Well I have to agree that if we ever saw enforcement activity like that in the UK that it would have adefinite impact on driver behaviour.

[George Riches]

Some cycling advocates in this country press for the law to be changed so that the burden of proof in the event of any collision between a motor vehicle and a cyclist or pedestrian should lie with the motorist. I.e. that the motorist should prove that he/she was not at fault.

I think that's a politically impractical demand.

Copying the Swiss law to make passing a cyclist closer than 1.5m an offence seems a more practical option.

[stoatsngroats]

Basically, unless the driver can prove that the cyclist deliberately caused the collision, they're in deep trouble.

In a very simplistic pov, this may be the answer to the question being sought.
It'd be interesting to see what would happen if this was enacted in law......and I know that its very unlikely to occur, but I have to refer to the change in use of hazard lights on motorways by HGV's some yars ago, which has become accepted practice (and mentioned in the Highway Code).

Also, that of high level brake lights, which I had in 1983, in the rear window of my Cortina, and was stopped on 3 occasions for this...which are now fitted as standard by most car manufacturers!!

This, and the other threads regarding cyclists is the beginning of a growing voice about making us safer...and a CTC sponsored plan to have our safety focussed on is paramount....