Humber Bridge now open to cyclists & pedestrians

Jdsk
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by Jdsk »

Steady rider wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 8:29pmThe suicide cases may go to an alternative location.
This is discussed above. It doesn't seem to happen in practice. That's in line with the current view that removing the immediate means for suicide reduces the rate and doesn't simply displace to another means.

Jonathan
Pete Owens
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by Pete Owens »

Jdsk wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 9:14pm
Steady rider wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 8:29pmThe suicide cases may go to an alternative location.
This is discussed above. It doesn't seem to happen in practice. That's in line with the current view that removing the immediate means for suicide reduces the rate and doesn't simply displace to another means.
You did indeed make that claim above - and even posted a link to a study which you claimed supported your view. However, the report states:
Efficacy_of_suicide_barriers_for_saving_lives wrote: Many studies have shown that well-designed suicide barriers stop people from jumping at a particular site, but no study has found the overall suicide rate within an area decreased significantly after a barrier went up as a result of that barrier.
I have put a bit more emphasis on the relevant bit as you seem to have missed it last time I pointed this out.
thirdcrank
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by thirdcrank »

Perhaps one thing to reflect on here is that the relevant authorities don't seem to see cUK as significant.
markjohnobrien
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by markjohnobrien »

thirdcrank wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 6:29am Perhaps one thing to reflect on here is that the relevant authorities don't seem to see cUK as significant.
From their perspective, why should they, as it’s just another lobbying group.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by thirdcrank »

From their perspective, why should they, as it’s just another lobbying group.
My point is that they don't. Had they been going to do anything involving motor traffic, especially a prolonged ban of a class of vehicle, I'd be pretty sure that the relevant haulage / driving interests would have been consulted about what was planned or notified were there no time for consulation. Now, cUK presents itself as the national representative of cyclists generally yet from the POV of the HBB, it might as well not exist.
markjohnobrien
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by markjohnobrien »

thirdcrank wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 10:08am
From their perspective, why should they, as it’s just another lobbying group.
My point is that they don't. Had they been going to do anything involving motor traffic, especially a prolonged ban of a class of vehicle, I'd be pretty sure that the relevant haulage / driving interests would have been consulted about what was planned or notified were there no time for consulation. Now, cUK presents itself as the national representative of cyclists generally yet from the POV of the HBB, it might as well not exist.
Fair enough - understand now.
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markjohnobrien
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by markjohnobrien »

markjohnobrien wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 10:11am
thirdcrank wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 10:08am
From their perspective, why should they, as it’s just another lobbying group.
My point is that they don't. Had they been going to do anything involving motor traffic, especially a prolonged ban of a class of vehicle, I'd be pretty sure that the relevant haulage / driving interests would have been consulted about what was planned or notified were there no time for consulation. Now, cUK presents itself as the national representative of cyclists generally yet from the POV of the HBB, it might as well not exist.
Fair enough - understand now. Your point is that they are particularly ineffective, not good at raising awareness, and useless as being seen as a key, strategic partner who is a key consultee. Policy capture, which other lobbying groups are brilliant at, doesn’t happen for Cycling UK.
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markjohnobrien
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by markjohnobrien »

markjohnobrien wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 10:14am
markjohnobrien wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 10:11am
thirdcrank wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 10:08am

My point is that they don't. Had they been going to do anything involving motor traffic, especially a prolonged ban of a class of vehicle, I'd be pretty sure that the relevant haulage / driving interests would have been consulted about what was planned or notified were there no time for consulation. Now, cUK presents itself as the national representative of cyclists generally yet from the POV of the HBB, it might as well not exist.
Fair enough - understand now. Your point is that they are particularly ineffective, not good at raising awareness, and useless as being seen as a key, strategic partner who is a key consultee. Policy capture, which other lobbying groups are brilliant at, doesn’t happen for Cycling UK.
Aghhh- damn iPhone messed up my reply.
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PH
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by PH »

thirdcrank wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 6:29am Perhaps one thing to reflect on here is that the relevant authorities don't seem to see cUK as significant.
Don't let the dead get in the way of another opportunity to knock CUK, reflect on that.
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by PH »

A little reading for those who think they have al the answers
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... places.pdf
thirdcrank
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by thirdcrank »

PH wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 11:43am
thirdcrank wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 6:29am Perhaps one thing to reflect on here is that the relevant authorities don't seem to see cUK as significant.
Don't let the dead get in the way of another opportunity to knock CUK, reflect on that.
I'm sorry if it came across like that, although I make no secret of having opposed the charity conversion and so on.

Here, the simple point I'm making is that the HBB felt able to make a decision having potentially really major effects on local cyclists and pedestrians, many (a majority?) of whom are commuting to work and for whom the extra distance of a round trip is probably impossible, all without even clear publicity and seemingly without any reference to any organisation representing cyclists. This is arguably a national thing. eg Reference has been made to the possibility of a TRO. I'm not going to dig it out, but back in the day, the list of statutory consultees for making a TRO included the AA and RAC but not what was then the CTC.

What I'm trying to say is reinforced by the "boilerplate" correspondence. (I did have to look that up. I thought a boilerplate would only be found on some ageing product of the Hunslet Engine Co or the Yorkshire Patent Steam Wagon Company.)

This is why I originally said "reflect." Smell the coffee seems to be the fairly current expression.
=========================================================
PS re people who think they have all the answers.

I appreciate that was addressed generally but in spite having dealt with a number of suicides and supervised the investigation of even more, I've no understanding at all of how people get into such a state of mind. My father's elder brother put his head in the gas oven around the time I was born and I grew up knowing the effect that had on the family.
Last edited by thirdcrank on 17 Apr 2021, 12:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by Bmblbzzz »

millimole wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 8:59pm
mjr wrote:
KTHSullivan wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 6:40pm but I understand from this evenings report that the Bridge Authority are intending to install some further CCTV before that happens.
Maybe I shouldn't post this, but how will CCTV help? Can the bridge workers run/drive from their posts quick enough to reach a jumper?
A family member who has a little knowledge of this type of thing suggests that potential suicide individuals will demonstrate behaviour that indicates their intent. Their experience is on railway stations, and apparently these souls are relatively easy to spot by their behaviour.
I'd imagine that seeing someone walking purposefully walking over the bridge would be something of a 'green flag', but someone dithering uncertainly might be a warning sign.
Yes, I've read that on stations, things as seemingly unconnected as the orientation of the seating can make a difference. If seating is perpendicular to rather than facing the tracks, it seems to reduce the number of suicides: requires just that little bit more conviction to launch yourself, I guess.

As for 'walking purposefully' not sure. When I cross the Severn Bridge, I often stop midway to look at the tide, the ever-changing mud patterns, boats that might be passing and so on.
PH
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by PH »

thirdcrank wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 12:18pm
PH wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 11:43am
thirdcrank wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 6:29am Perhaps one thing to reflect on here is that the relevant authorities don't seem to see cUK as significant.
Don't let the dead get in the way of another opportunity to knock CUK, reflect on that.
I'm sorry if it came across like that, although I make no secret of having opposed the charity conversion and so on.
OK, but you could just as easily made that point without the party politics, the criticism of the bridge authority is that they haven't given pedestrians and cyclists due consideration. While there's something in that, it's an attitude that predates CUK by many decades. You might reflect on how this situation came about, and why the country hasn't had an effective organisation that stopped that attitude becoming so prevalent, but this isn't the thread for it.
thirdcrank
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by thirdcrank »

... it's an attitude that predates CUK by many decades. ..
And that's just the point I was trying to make when I wrote that the CTC was not a statutory consultee for traffic regulation orders. FWIW, I have a bit of personal experience of that. When I started as a CRN rep, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed (as if) I quickly discovered that I was only finding out about schemes too late. With the help of highwaymen in the newly-created section to promote cycling, I got myself on the automatic consultation list for all Leeds TROs. A bit of an eye-opener because eg every individual on-road parking place for a disabled driver (outside their own house) involves a TRO. But the blunderbuss approach meant I got everything - even though the important spending decisions had been made years even decades before.
===============================================================================
PS I've checked and my memory is inaccurate.
Consultation

6.—(1) An order making authority shall, before making an order in a case specified in column (2) of an item in the table below, consult the persons specified in column (3) of the item.

( ... )

7. All cases

(a) The Freight Transport Association

(b) The Road Haulage Association

(c) Such other organisations (if any) representing persons likely to be affected by any provision in the order as the order making authority thinks it appropriate to consult
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/199 ... gulation/6

THE AA and RAC must have been on Leeds City Council's own list of automatic consultees and they kindly put the CTC on that list too accepting my argument that cyclists were affected by all TROs, not just those related to farcilities and the like.
Pete Owens
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely

Post by Pete Owens »

thirdcrank wrote: 17 Apr 2021, 6:29am Perhaps one thing to reflect on here is that the relevant authorities don't seem to see cUK as significant.
The problem is not that they see CUK as insignificant it is that they see cyclists as insignificant.

Had suicides been jumping from the side of the road the thought of closing the bridge to motor traffic simply wouldn't have occurred to them. After all, as someone pointed out up-thread - they could have easily retained pedestrian and cycle access while closing the footways by the simple measure of closing one of the carriageways to motors and setting up a contraflow.

What is more astonishing is that so many contributors to a cycle forum think their actions are reasonable. If we can't even convince other cyclists that cyclists are as important as motorists, or that subjecting cyclists to a 60 mile detour is excessive, what hope do we have of convincing the authorities to take us seriously.
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