Presumed liability petition

[Grumpy-Grandad]

Having read all the arguments in favour I still can not accept 'guilty unless you prove your innocence' ...... or 'liable unless you prove you're not'.

I have investigated many RTA's over the years and always started with a neutral mindset, then went where the evidence lead me ..... if there was no evidence to support immediate action against a person my report was passed up the food chain for a decision.

I learned early in my career that things are not always what they seem ...... and, surprise surprise, people tell lies

I have seen all sorts of behaviour ranging from very very good cycling/riding/driving to absolutely dangerous and no one category seems to have the premium on being bad

[mjr]

Having read all the arguments in favour I still can not accept 'guilty unless you prove your innocence' ...... or 'liable unless you prove you're not'.

I am confused: do you support a "neutral mindset" where the national average is used as a starting point (so 85% motorist liability, rather than the 100% of the petition) or the current anti-cycling 50:50? If the latter, isn't that rather like the BBC's misguided "balance" policy where every round earther on a news show must have a flat earther get equal time?

[Grumpy-Grandad]

The only starting point I use is one of neutrality.

[mjr]

The only starting point I use is one of neutrality.

But what is neutrality here?

[mattheus]

I can't sign the petition.
Automatically assuming the motor vehicle driver is in the wrong is ....... wrong.

But it's not doing that.

Liability is not guilt.

(<sigh> this subject is always another round of whack-a-mole. )

[mattheus]

Automatic assumption of guilt by one party

But it isnt that.

<louder sigh>

[Bonefishblues]

Could you perhaps give a quick primer on what it is for the benefit of our new member?

(tiny, tiny, really very slight sigh )

[Psamathe]

I think the above aspects (and I appreciate both aspects to the discussion) highlight how difficult it would be to get this into UK law. And just imagine things when it gets to the HoL and Lord "hoodlums in Lycra" (Lord Wills) or Lord "for cycling licences" (Lord Winston) get involved. I can't see "it works in the EU" swinging much in favour either.

I wonder if the way forward would be for the cycling organisations to put their heads together (with their legal experts) to find a proposal that would gain wider public acceptance and stand some chance through our legislature - and then run a camagn round that.

Ian

[thirdcrank]

Could you perhaps give a quick primer on what it is for the benefit of our new member?

Let's not lose sight of this request.

[mattheus]

I thought someone involved with accident investigation would know the difference between
Liability and
Guilt.

[Jdsk]

Could you perhaps give a quick primer on what it is for the benefit of our new member?

I wonder if the way forward would be for the cycling organisations to put their heads together (with their legal experts) to find a proposal that would gain wider public acceptance and stand some chance through our legislature - and then run a camagn round that.

I suggest starting with the proposal for Scotland, as linked above.

Jonathan

[thirdcrank]

I certainly understand the difference between liability and guilt. I've yet to see an evidenced explanation of presumed liability. (By 'evidenced' I mean supported with a straightforward guide to the countries where this is said to operate with a brief summary of how it operates there - or at least in a couple of examples with what people feel is good practice.)

[Jdsk]

"Cycling accidents & presumed liability: UK vs Europe"
https://www.slatergordon.co.uk/newsroom ... vs-europe/

and in the Scottish proposal there's a table of comparisons between countries.

Jonathan

[markjohnobrien]

I certainly understand the difference between liability and guilt. I've yet to see an evidenced explanation of presumed liability. (By 'evidenced' I mean supported with a straightforward guide to the countries where this is said to operate with a brief summary of how it operates there - or at least in a couple of examples with what people feel is good practice.)

Useful section on the European countries and their respective approaches - shows similarities and differences between countries:

https://www.slatergordon.co.uk/newsroom ... vs-europe/

[markjohnobrien]

Oops - didn’t see that JDSK had the same thought.