Traffic lights giving cyclists a head start - Bristol

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Traffic lights giving cyclists a head start - Bristol

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Traffic data always show high numbers of cyclists on the Gloucester Road. It's not paradise but it's a long way from a disaster zone.
Pete Owens
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Re: Traffic lights giving cyclists a head start - Bristol

Post by Pete Owens »

MikeF wrote: 18 Apr 2021, 10:47pm
prestavalve wrote: 14 Apr 2021, 5:01pm The best solution remains a world in which cyclists take the lane, I fail to understand why anyone should apologise for believing that. If you want to accept a world in which that is not possible for any but the most elite middle aged athlete, then crack on.
You are no doubt a confident and fast cyclist taking the lane.
No just cautious and competent.
Have you tried taking the lane sticking to 6mph rather the 12mph as many less athletic or young cyclists would do?
It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with speed.
I am a slow unfit cyclist; I just happen to value my safety and comfort above the ability of motor traffic to overtake now this second. If I am heading into the wind or uphill I will indeed be going very slowly - If I have a tail wind or going downhill I will be going faster. But if there isn't room to overtake safely I will keep to the lane in either circumstance, rather than move left to invite a close pass.
One thing about cycling with motor traffic is that the cyclist is always having to compete with that motor traffic and that's the biggest problem.
It is nothing to do with competition - you are just riding along minding your own business. There is absolutely no requirement to pull over into the gutter just so that someone can get to the back of the next queue a few seconds earlier. Of course if you are very brave and personally think that maintaining the speed of motor traffic is more important than your comfort then by all means head to the edge of the road and invite the following driver to share the lane - because that is what such a road position is signalling. It is no coincidence that advocates (and presumably practitioners) of poor lane positioning also tend to report finding cycling a stressful experience.
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mjr
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Re: Traffic lights giving cyclists a head start - Bristol

Post by mjr »

Pete Owens wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 12:48am It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with speed.
I am a slow unfit cyclist; I just happen to value my safety and comfort above the ability of motor traffic to overtake now this second.
And do you feel no stress whatsoever plodding uphill at 6 mph centre lane with a HGV sat 6m off your back wheel? Even if it's revving and honking?
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prestavalve
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Re: Traffic lights giving cyclists a head start - Bristol

Post by prestavalve »

mjr wrote: And do you feel no stress whatsoever plodding uphill at 6 mph centre lane with a HGV sat 6m off your back wheel? Even if it's revving and honking?
Anyone would feel intimidated by a honking lorry. That's also not the correct way for that lorry to behave. So let's assume that it is just sitting there.

If they do feel uncomfortable in the latter situation, it is because of their own perception of where cyclists belong, supported by the behaviour of some drivers (driven by their perception of where cyclists belong). If you make a separate space for cyclists, you reinforce these attitudes amongst both groups.

I do not accept this premise.

I believe that all cyclists belong on the road.

I think this might not be the right group for me.
Pete Owens
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Re: Traffic lights giving cyclists a head start - Bristol

Post by Pete Owens »

mjr wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 9:03am
Pete Owens wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 12:48am It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with speed.
I am a slow unfit cyclist; I just happen to value my safety and comfort above the ability of motor traffic to overtake now this second.
And do you feel no stress whatsoever plodding uphill at 6 mph centre lane with a HGV sat 6m off your back wheel? Even if it's revving and honking?
I've never been honked at by an HGV - probably because the professional drivers of such realise that they need to overtake properly and their vehicles are simply too big to attempt to squeeze past - they also know that there is little point rushing and they will soon catch up to the next traffic jam. If I am approaching a potential pinch point I actually prefer to have an HGV following.

Indeed, the only times I ever get honked at (and regularly so) is when I don't use one the segregated facilities put in place to prevent us delaying the all important motors - and then only by car drivers. I realise how passionately motorists support your segregationist cause by the vehemence (in varying degrees of eloquence) with which they advocate I should use the facilities you campaign for. However, I consider my own safety of rather greater concern than their impotent wails of frustration.
prestavalve
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Re: Traffic lights giving cyclists a head start - Bristol

Post by prestavalve »

Pete Owens wrote: Indeed, the only times I ever get honked at (and regularly so) is when I don't use one the segregated facilities put in place to prevent us delaying the all important motors - and then only by car drivers. I realise how passionately motorists support your segregationist cause by the vehemence (in varying degrees of eloquence) with which they advocate I should use the facilities you campaign for. However, I consider my own safety of rather greater concern than their impotent wails of frustration.
@mjr - see, I am not the only weirdo who thinks this way.
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mjr
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Re: Traffic lights giving cyclists a head start - Bristol

Post by mjr »

prestavalve wrote: 29 Apr 2021, 7:06pm Anyone would feel intimidated by a honking lorry. That's also not the correct way for that lorry to behave. So let's assume that it is just sitting there.
First, the lorry only behaves as its driver makes it. Secondly, I think literally most of the most serious problems with our roads are caused by people behaving incorrectly, so that's an unrealistic idealistic assumption, but let's leave it for now.
If they do feel uncomfortable in the latter situation, it is because of their own perception of where cyclists belong, supported by the behaviour of some drivers (driven by their perception of where cyclists belong). If you make a separate space for cyclists, you reinforce these attitudes amongst both groups.

I do not accept this premise.
I do not accept your premise either. I think it is thoroughly incorrect from start to finish. The problems with cycling are not the perception of people who don't want to cycle on our current roads with our current laws. It's in what causes that perception.

Also, have we not learned from decades of "encouragement", "promotion" and "marketing" that it is not the root cause? There is no amount of perception-altering which will bring mass cycling back on its own.

And if making a separate space reinforced an attitude that its users did not belong on the road, why has creation of motorways not reinforced an attitude that motorists do not belong on all-purpose roads? I think that is another data point suggesting the theory is false.
I believe that all cyclists belong on the road.
So do I, but cycleways are roads and parts of roads too.
Pete Owens wrote: 29 Apr 2021, 11:49pm I've never been honked at by an HGV
You need to ride more, then, maybe out on open country roads where the HGV drivers don't think "there is little point rushing and they will soon catch up to the next traffic jam" because that's 40 miles away in the next city.
Indeed, the only times I ever get honked at (and regularly so) is when I don't use one the segregated facilities put in place to prevent us delaying the all important motors - and then only by car drivers.
Again, you need to ride more. As I've mentioned before, I've been honked while using cycleways, I've been honked while using carriageways where there is no cycleway. I am pretty sure some incompetent drivers just honk cyclists for cycling.
...your segregationist cause...
Your repeated lying about my views ruins your credibility. My cause is mass cycling. I am not a segregationist. I fully support your right to use all all-purpose roads, while also realising that we will never get to mass cycling without protected space for cycling on fast and busy roads, slowing down some quiet roads and reducing motor traffic on some slow roads.
However, I consider my own safety of rather greater concern than their impotent wails of frustration.
I guess this is yet another reference to the same dodgy old research about safety of cycleways, but this is not about you. It's not about me. It's about our non-cycling neighbours and friends whose health and wealth is being trashed again and again over years by the messed-up transport policies and practices in the UK.
prestavalve wrote: 30 Apr 2021, 9:55am @mjr - see, I am not the only weirdo who thinks this way.
Oh I'm well aware that the "cyclists should behave like unmotorised cars" vehicularist rearguard that dominated CTC policy for 80-90 years of decline is still around, still giving succour to motoring groups who exploit them to claim cyclists are divided or don't want motor-free cycleways or filtered streets.
Last edited by mjr on 30 Apr 2021, 12:11pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Stevek76
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Re: Traffic lights giving cyclists a head start - Bristol

Post by Stevek76 »

Traffic data always show high numbers of cyclists on the Gloucester Road. It's not paradise but it's a long way from a disaster zone.
A function of demographics and that alternative transport is also terrible. The collision stats do not paint a pretty picture of it. Advisory paint, poor condition and some poor junctions. As far as urban main roads go I'd be interested in examples that are worse!
prestavalve wrote: I think this might not be the right group for me.
Well you're not the only advocate of vehicular cycling on the forum and they are, unsurprisingly, more common amongst those who already cycle. Perhaps wrong century is more accurate. Those of us who are willing to cycle in traffic evidently don't perceive significant danger or discomfort from doing so. However those of us who are willing to do so is a few %. The contrasts rather dramatically with places that have gone down the infrastructure route where cycling is over 30% of trips and even over half in urban areas.

We also seem to be getting into the usual conspiracy daftness that those of us advocating for quality infrastructure are doing so for the benefit of the motorcar, this really doesn't make much sense given any quality infrastructure will inevitably result in some hindrance to the motorcar, and that most of us also tend to be favour of further measures to reduce car use and balance out the inherent subsidy they receive through externalising large costs onto the pubic purse. I.e. congestion & parking charges and controls.
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