Changes in transport costs.

[Mike Sales]

Interesting, and one to use with whingeing motorists.

https://www.statista.com/chart/24962/ch ... -motoring/

[Stevek76]

This is also what makes business cases to bid for government funding for roads so much easier to produce than for bus or rail projects.

The central forecast scenario that has to be used assumes such trends, with the associated mode shift to car, continue.

Of course, councils can counter this trend but that requires them to introduce 'anti car' measures such as parking controls and congestion/workplace parking charges and incur the political fallout from doing so.

[fastpedaller]

I'd be surprised if the figures above for car cost are realistic. Is this for people who buy a car but don't use it? The capital sunk in most cars is huge, plus the running costs of MOT, parts, repairs, insurance. I think it would be cheaper for a lot of elderly people to get a taxi (not all the same one ) than run a car. When we did the sums for my elderly Mother, the total cost for a years' motoring was horrendous - she didn't believe it of course, as a £10 taxi is far too much!

[PH]

I'd be surprised if the figures above for car cost are realistic. Is this for people who buy a car but don't use it?

The graph deals with the ten year increase, rather than the actual costs, petrol is the same price it was in 2011 (Though it fell in the intervening years) car prices have increased 35% but finance is cheaper, insurance has become more competitive and seems to have increased less than the cost of living... I think it's probably accurate. I've lived in my present address for ten years and the return bus fare to town has increased from £2.50 to £4.40 so that's bang on the 75%. I don't know what it is now, but annual train fare increases were capped at 2% above inflation, so it's hardly surprising those increases fall between the cost of living and buses.
I don't disagree that some people's transport costs would be lower not owning a car, if only they'd consider it, that's always been the case but the difference is narrowing rather than widening. and of course it's self perpetuating, cost goes up, less people use it, services get cut, less people use it....

[PH]

Of course, councils can counter this trend but that requires them to introduce 'anti car' measures such as parking controls and congestion/workplace parking charges and incur the political fallout from doing so.

But the carrot to go with that stick needs to be affordable and reliable public transport alternatives. That's beyond the budget of local councils who have had their transport budgets cut 40% over the last decade, while an increasing amount has had to be spent on concessionary travel.

[Stevek76]

I'd be surprised if the figures above for car cost are realistic. Is this for people who buy a car but don't use it?

Not sure exactly which figure they've used but regardless of whether you consider full cost of just running costs it doesn't change the main issue which is that the cost of public transport has risen dramatically more than using a car.

Note to they're presenting 'real terms' costs, i.e. changes normalised to inflation.

The dataset I assume they've used is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... ure-tsgb13

Tsgb1308 is the one you want.

But the carrot to go with that stick needs to be affordable and reliable public transport alternatives. That's beyond the budget of local councils

Well there's an element of chicken and egg there but the limited road space in most built up areas means the stick has to come first even if the cuts had not happened. There's no easy way out of that and as I indicate, the government has effectively offloaded the widely perceived unpopularity of any such stick to councils when it first cancelled the fuel escalator and then froze duty altogether.

Cuts or not, any major public transport scheme is outside a council's regular budget and has to come from a bid to the dft/Lep etc (for England at least - transport is devolved).

Also it needs to be kept in mind that the concept of the poor motorist is largely a myth and is not borne out by data from the national travel survey which consistently shows a strong link between income and car ownership & use. There are exceptions of course but these are few so could easily be catered/exempted for in any measures.

[MikeF]

I am not sure what is being compared.
Bus/coach fares, Rail fares, but motoring what??? Cost of fuel??
It's not showing total cost which is what matters. Not to mention CO2 production costs.

That chart doesn't show anything meaningful but the RAC appear to have used it.

[Mike Sales]

I am not sure what is being compared.
Bus/coach fares, Rail fares, but motoring what??? Cost of fuel??

That chart doesn't show anything meaningful but the RAC appear to have used it.

On the chart it says that costs include fuel, tax, insurance, purchase and maintenance.
It also says that the RAC Foundation is the source of the data, derived from ONS.(Office for National Statistics)
If you do want to find out more I can only point you to the Statista website, to which I gave a link.

[pwa]

I used a bus a few weeks ago and everyone else on the bus was travelling free on their pensioners' bus pass, so obviously they could afford it. To me, a paying passenger, it seemed like quite a lot of money to travel slowly and in discomfort. My long legs mean I have to sit bolt upright, which I find unnatural and tolerable only for short distances.

[Stevek76]

I am not sure what is being compared.
Bus/coach fares, Rail fares, but motoring what??? Cost of fuel??

That chart doesn't show anything meaningful but the RAC appear to have used it.

On the chart it says that costs include fuel, tax, insurance, purchase and maintenance.
It also says that the RAC Foundation is the source of the data, derived from ONS.(Office for National Statistics)
If you do want to find out more I can only point you to the Statista website, to which I gave a link.

The link I provided above has a year by year breakdown of the individual components though only compiled up to 2019 currently.

The ons source is here

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflatio ... einflation

[MikeF]

I am not sure what is being compared.
Bus/coach fares, Rail fares, but motoring what??? Cost of fuel??

That chart doesn't show anything meaningful but the RAC appear to have used it.

On the chart it says that costs include fuel, tax, insurance, purchase and maintenance.
It also says that the RAC Foundation is the source of the data, derived from ONS.(Office for National Statistics)
If you do want to find out more I can only point you to the Statista website, to which I gave a link.

The link I provided above has a year by year breakdown of the individual components though only compiled up to 2019 currently.

The ons source is here

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflatio ... einflation

Thanks, but it's still not clear to me how the RAC analysed the data

[Jdsk]

"Transport for the North boss calls for debate on raising cost of driving":
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... st-driving

"There needs to be an “honest conversation” about making driving more expensive in order to subsidise public transport, according to the new head of the north of England’s strategic transport body."

Jonathan

[Stevek76]

Yes, saw that, very much needed. Leadership at the national level would be good here but, as noted, English councils do already have considerable powers to raise the cost & restrict supply for driving which comes with the bonus that they get to keep the proceeds.

Thanks, but it's still not clear to me how the RAC analysed the data

Use indices to derive inflation as RPI end year/RPI start year (1)

Similarly produce absolute changes from the indices for the relevant components to get their growth in cost over the same period. (2)

Divide growth of component by inflation (i.e. 2/1) to get 'real terms' changes as presented.

[Carlton green]

Changes in transport costs.jpeg

Interesting, and one to use with whingeing motorists.

https://www.statista.com/chart/24962/ch ... -motoring/

So what’s the problem here? I live in a rural area and at best the service to my nearest city is twice per hour and the journey time is considerably longer (maybe double) than if I drove. Of course I want to go other places too and the bus don’t go there so I cycle or use my car. People whinge about folk not using public transport, I suggest that they try to do so themselves and then develop some solutions for the problems that they will find.

Maybe if I lived in a City with good public transport I would use buses, but wait I used to live in a City and it did have a good bus service. However getting to many places was still very difficult, expensive and time consuming, and the buses stopped running in the late evening. I ended up getting motorised transport and my horizons expanded greatly; it appears that buses are for those who, for whatever reason, can’t hold a driving licence.

What’s to be done to get folk back on the buses I don’t know, but maybe the reasons why people don’t use them (see above) need to be addressed rather than attacking folk for making better alternative arrangements ...

"Transport for the North boss calls for debate on raising cost of driving":
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... st-driving

"There needs to be an “honest conversation” about making driving more expensive in order to subsidise public transport, according to the new head of the north of England’s strategic transport body."

I’m inclined to call the man an idiot, he isn’t but the idea would suggest otherwise. As above address the shortcomings of public transport, make it a practical option and people will use it. It’s not all about money, though that’s not insignificant, and it certainly is about being able to make the right journey in a reasonable time and when needed.

[MikeF]

Yes, saw that, very much needed. Leadership at the national level would be good here but, as noted, English councils do already have considerable powers to raise the cost & restrict supply for driving which comes with the bonus that they get to keep the proceeds.

Thanks, but it's still not clear to me how the RAC analysed the data

Use indices to derive inflation as RPI end year/RPI start year (1)

Similarly produce absolute changes from the indices for the relevant components to get their growth in cost over the same period. (2)

Divide growth of component by inflation (i.e. 2/1) to get 'real terms' changes as presented.

Er well yes, but it's the basis of the figures that counts and not the values. In reality it's very difficult to compare the costs of different methods of transport because not all costs are compared.