Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

lescargo
Posts: 273
Joined: 27 Dec 2013, 11:51pm
Location: Tyneside

Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by lescargo »

I have read, somewhere on this site, the numbers of drivers who are still allowed to drive despite being over "disqualification" points number or escape realistic sentence for serious offences that actually hurt, kill innocent people.
IIRC there was a case ,Norfolk, East Anglia? where young mum turning left wiped out cyclist insisted ban would mean couldn't get her 6 years old to school.
Why did Judge not say push chair or bike with kiddy seat to wheel to school and ride home!!

Could someone please help me with these figures?.
How, without funds for a top "brief" does Joe Public get sentence reduced or even scrapped?

Why??
I need to quote them

I am appealing against two, within five minutes of each other, PCN.s.
I drove car in bus lanes.
Guilty-they sent photos to prove it.

Why appeal?
Because paperwork says you can; however our appeal has been rejected.
Quote "We have carefully considered your points but we have decided not to cancel your PCN.
No reason for rejection.
I had hoped for cancellation but at very least collating to one fine.
I feel that Sheffield City council have ignored my circumstances/explanation for offences.
I also mentioned that whether at home town or away biggest driver problem is those clowns who step out with phone in hand and brain in neutral !!!

I got these because I had no alternative, while driving in unfamiliar city other than to rely on *navigator, Alousha, who only travels on Public Transport in our passenger seat to drive to Sheffield Northern General.

Why?
Covid complications.

Our son in SNG following burst appendix.
After one week we asked when possible for us to visit??

Some moments hesitation with reply but it was explained to us that it could be possible for his sole covid nominated visitor, *Alousha to visit ward-with the mask and gown supplied then wheel our son outside for us to meet up clear of hospital ward.
This by firm prior appointment and only possible after three drains and intravenous nutrition drip were no longer needed/ attached.

FULL MARKS TO SHEFFIELD NORTHERN GENERAL.

It worked well but not so good next day in the rain.

As thank-you we left three shopping bags of **ALDI goodies, cakes, chocolate, savouries, nuts for staff tea rooms.
One for son's ward, which was acknowledged and other two for Ambulance and Domestics departments-cos I doubt they get many nice cards and chocolates.
** As it happens, spent £100, £40 more than the two fines; they all deserve a lift/thankyou in these difficult days.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by thirdcrank »

I don't think your case has anything directly to do with the thread you are asking about. AIUI, you have received fixed penalties for "decriminalised" offences.

The first thing to do with any "ticket" is carefully to read all the information coming with it, which should include things like how to appeal. If I'm right about your tickets the appeal is to this tribunal
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/
It looks as though you have been there.

I think this is the thread you were referring to. It's about "totting up" disqualifications
viewtopic.php?p=1622732#p1622732
lescargo
Posts: 273
Joined: 27 Dec 2013, 11:51pm
Location: Tyneside

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by lescargo »

Thank you thirdcrank for your prompt reply.
I first responded to initial PCN's with letter using their exact references to BOTH charges requesting suspension/ postponement while I appealed.
That was allowed in paperwork so that I would not pay full £60/offence because I hadn't paid discounted £30/offence, in 14 days .
Two weeks later I had *notice that I must now pay £60 on one of the offences and if not paid within further 14 days charge would be £90 and measures would be taken to recover this etc, etc,

Phoned Sheffield City Council, no direct phone no. available for Parking services.
Join the queue at Town hall then transfer to queue for parking services.
45 mins later it was explained to me that because I had failed to write individual letters for each offence then only one was suspended.
Hence * notice.
I pointed out that if they read my letter they would see reference to both charges listed as A) and B), their own references and alongside the specific times and that surely, after such clarity I should have been informed on procedural error.
I was assured that this matter would be addressed.

I now have Sheffield City notices of rejection.
In both cases further detail of my route and exact sites
BUT no explanation for ignoring my plea.

There is now the option you describe whereby I can appeal to Traffic Penalty Tribunal
www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk
I intend to try that-tell them how and why it happened and ask why is it that there are n?1000 drivers who should be banned for several repeat speeding offences and burglars sentences reduced for pleading guilty/other offences taken into consideration when here I have not further endangered anyone else or caused distress to anyone these PCN's cannot be cancelled or at the very least be collectively treat as one not as actually happened sequence was a sequence of offences.
We are decent people .
We don't deserve this!!!
We haven't hurt anyone.

I feel that these parking services/traffic departments get so many spurious pleas that top-down directive is just tell all to Pay Up and Shut Up.
Thanks again for your prompt response.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by Jdsk »

lescargo wrote: 13 Sep 2021, 9:38pmI intend to try that-tell them how and why it happened and ask why is it that there are n?1000 drivers who should be banned for several repeat speeding offences and burglars sentences reduced for pleading guilty/other offences taken into consideration when here I have not further endangered anyone else or caused distress to anyone these PCN's cannot be cancelled or at the very least be collectively treat as one not as actually happened sequence was a sequence of offences.
We are decent people .
We don't deserve this!!!
We haven't hurt anyone.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but do you want to maximise your chances of winning at appeal or do you want to be right?

If it's the former then I strongly recommend writing down your case well in advance of the deadline or hearing. And then getting someone neutral to go through it.

Including your views of other people and how society gets things wrong will have no useful effects and I would understand why any busy adjudicator would be annoyed by it.

You thought that there was a medical emergency, you were in unfamiliar territory, and your navigator doesn't drive. You didn't break any other laws or do anything that endangered other people. And you made some mistakes. If you've got a clean driving record then include that. That's not a bad case.

Jonathan
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by Pete Owens »

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

As I understand it you are not disputing the facts of the case.
You drove in a bus lane - you got caught - you got a fine - pay up.

The only grounds for appeal would be if you hadn't in fact driven in the bus lane. Perhaps you could provide witnesses to testify that you were in Aberdeen on the day in question, or the car in the photo was not yours, but someone using fake plates or, the signs indicating the bus lane were missing. But you seem to be offering a sob story about your circumstances and claiming to be a nice person (though rather denting that image by your nasty victim-blaming reference about pedestrians with phones)
fastpedaller
Posts: 3435
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by fastpedaller »

I have a certain sympathy with the OP. Unfortunately it's very easy with this type of 'offence' to make the mud stick, especially with people (like the OP) who are otherwise 'law abiding' and have the means to be traced and probably the ability to pay. The hardened lawbreakers, on the other hand ie those who's car isn't properly registered, who are persistent offenders (of a higher order) and may be able to get legal aid, are much harder to bring to justice, so seem to just 'keep the ball rolling' and know every trick in the book to avoid paying, including driving whilst banned. Until the system makes it too difficult for them to continue their ways (eg taking away their liberty) they do as they please.
lescargo
Posts: 273
Joined: 27 Dec 2013, 11:51pm
Location: Tyneside

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by lescargo »

Jonathan- thank you.
You are right .

I am annoyed with myself for mistake of my naïve reliance on non-driver for navigation but then we had little choice. We had to get his sole nominated hospital visitor to Sheffield Northern General to wheel him out of building to meet us.
It worked.

Now I am annoyed that Sheffield City are ignoring what they, apparently, interpret as a sob-story.
It's not about the £60-its because I feel fobbed off-we don't deserve this.

I shall do as you suggest.
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by Pete Owens »

lescargo wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 12:30am I am annoyed with myself for mistake of my naïve reliance on non-driver for navigation but then we had little choice.
Don't try to blame others for your own wrongdoing.
You were the driver - it is your responsibility to do so legally.
You chose not to - and now you are facing the consequences of your own actions.

Had your navigator directed you to drive down the right hand carriageway of the M1, or anti-clockwise round a roundabout, or along the River Don, or through a red traffic light, or along a railway line, or over a cliff - you would not have blindly obeyed or claimed you had "no choice".
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by Pete Owens »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Sep 2021, 9:56pm You didn't break any other laws or do anything that endangered other people.
And he hasn't been charged with dangerous driving.
Most crimes don't endanger people - would we accept that as an excuse for shoplifters, fraudsters, fly-tippers or bile thieves?
And you made some mistakes. If you've got a clean driving record then include that. That's not a bad case.
This is of course the basis of the totting up system. If you make the occasional mistake and get caught the punishment is a minor fine - effectively a slap on the wrist. If you maker a habit of it then you will be banned. But it can't work if "having a clean licence" is seen as a reason for not endorsing that licence in the first place.

He has been caught committing a minor infringement for which he has quite properly received a minor punishment.
He should pay the fine and learn not to do it again.
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by pwa »

I had points on my license but they have now expired. And I hope to keep it clean. I found having had points made me more careful with the speedo, giving me that extra incentive to focus. And even though the points are now gone, I still have that feeling. So for me, it worked. Others will be different of course.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by Jdsk »

Pete Owens wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 1:44am
Jdsk wrote: 13 Sep 2021, 9:56pmor do anything that endangered other people.
And he hasn't been charged with dangerous driving.
Most crimes don't endanger people - would we accept that as an excuse for shoplifters, fraudsters, fly-tippers or bile thieves?
We take it into account in many crimes. From the Sentencing Guidelines for theft:

Harm
Harm is assessed by reference to the financial loss that results from the theft and any significant additional harm suffered by the victim or others – examples of significant additional harm may include but are not limited to:
Items stolen were of substantial value to the loser – regardless of monetary worth
High level of inconvenience caused to the victim or others
Consequential financial harm to victim or others
Emotional distress
Fear/loss of confidence caused by the crime
Risk of or actual injury to persons or damage to property
Impact of theft on a business
Damage to heritage assets
Disruption caused to infrastructure

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/of ... t-general/

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by Jdsk »

lescargo wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 12:30am Jonathan- thank you.
You are right .

I am annoyed with myself for mistake of my naïve reliance on non-driver for navigation but then we had little choice. We had to get his sole nominated hospital visitor to Sheffield Northern General to wheel him out of building to meet us.
It worked.

Now I am annoyed that Sheffield City are ignoring what they, apparently, interpret as a sob-story.
It's not about the £60-its because I feel fobbed off-we don't deserve this.

I shall do as you suggest.
You're welcome. Everyone is entitled to the best defence they can present.

But again... feeling that you're fobbed off and that you don't deserve it won't be part of your best line of defence.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by thirdcrank »

An underlying problem here is a lack of clarity about traffic enforcement by fixed penalties, of which there are several quite separate types. Several things eg the different systems for different tickets; piecemeal development; the collapse of most police traffic enforcement; urban myth, fuelled by social media; the extraordinarily successful self-publicity of Nick Freeman AKA Mr Loophole; seem to have led to a widespread impression of what I've described as "they can't touch you for it."

That's undesirable for various reasons, one of the most obvious (to me) being that if people think they can escape enforcement, many will not conform, especially if they feel some sort of personal justification - typically being in a hurry. Another, is the resentment when there is unexpected enforcement.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 10:34am An underlying problem here is a lack of clarity about traffic enforcement by fixed penalties, of which there are several quite separate types. Several things eg the different systems for different tickets; piecemeal development; the collapse of most police traffic enforcement; urban myth, fuelled by social media; the extraordinarily successful self-publicity of Nick Freeman AKA Mr Loophole; seem to have led to a widespread impression of what I've described as "they can't touch you for it."

That's undesirable for various reasons, one of the most obvious (to me) being that if people think they can escape enforcement, many will not conform, especially if they feel some sort of personal justification - typically being in a hurry. Another, is the resentment when there is unexpected enforcement.
Well said.

Jonathan
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Drivers over penalty points allowed to drive?

Post by pete75 »

Isn't driving in a bus lane an absolute offence, assuming the lane is signed and indicated according to the law? If it wasn't correctly signed you have valid grounds for appeal but if it was properly signed then you have to pay up.
You can, of course, take them right to the end of the appeals process which means a Traffic Penalty Tribunal hearing. This isn't as grand as it sounds. You and a council officer will put forward your cases to an adjudicator. It's usually done by phone and is a fairly informal process.
You'll almost certainly lose but can take pleasure at the thought that handling your appeal has cost the council more in officer time than they gain from your fines. I suspect the adjudicator would rule you're entitled to the 30 quid discount for both penalties because you mentioned them both in your appeal letter.

You'd be wise not to mention anything about drivers with penalty points, pedestrians on mobile phones etc when speaking to the adjudicator.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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