Jumping Redlights
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mel
Jumping Redlights
I've often seen posts refering to cyclists ignoring red traffic lights. Yesterday I had reason to drive over to the Midlands and to drive through Worcester City, where there seems to be above average cycle use, I never saw a single cyclist stop for a Red light, they just zig-zagged, and occasionally paused, through the crossing traffic. It could be I happened to be there on an off day, or the cyclists were possibly inebriated, judging by their bikes and apparel I would consider them to be serious cyclists...some could be CTC members. It's this sort of thing which will aggrevate motorists, and officialdom, resulting in all of us losing out eventually, if we're all considered to be flaunting the law..dangerously so.
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mike6
Re:Jumping Redlights
The motorist is a fickle creature. Any cyclist concerned about aggravating motorists gave up cycling years ago.
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Pedalling Pete
Re:Jumping Redlights
Presumably Mel and others getting worked up over this matter are unaware of the "Right on Red" convention in some parts of the USA which applies to all traffic. This accepts that there is little point in waiting at a red light if you can make a right turn without inconveniencing other traffic. In the UK that would be Left on Red!
That was apparently discussed a few years back by the Conservative Party as a possible vote winner prior to a recent general election. Thankfully it was not put forward; it would have applied to all traffic, and cyclists would have been particularly vulnerable due to the "Blind Spot" caused by the windscreen pillar of motor vehicles; and the failure of both the driving test and most driving instructors to check if a driver understands that this Blind Spot actually exists!
Let's be clear on this issue: Just because you observe the red light laws, it doesn't mean you are safe from others who don't, whether deliberately, by incompetence, or by the avoidable effects of drink or drugs (recreational or prescription).
In most such incidents it is the cyclist who has to take evasive action to survive, and the motorist who drives on regardless.
When I see a cyclist running a red light, I can be pretty sure they will have made their own risk assessment, and that will be of a higher standard to that of the average motorist protected by their seat belts, crumple zones, side-impact bars, and air bags.
If motorists such as Ann Widdicombe get upset by this, that's fine by me. It means they have suddenly realised they have to be alert to the unexpected when driving, rather than simply being comfortable in their motorised armchair. Maybe that's why they get so upset. We certainly hear little from them about the most common forms of law-breaking - use of mobile phones while driving, breaking speed limits etc etc!
In the world of politics and the media, it's OK to bash minorities not protected by laws concerning race, creed, gender etc, but you must always take the side of the poor downtrodden motorist.
That was apparently discussed a few years back by the Conservative Party as a possible vote winner prior to a recent general election. Thankfully it was not put forward; it would have applied to all traffic, and cyclists would have been particularly vulnerable due to the "Blind Spot" caused by the windscreen pillar of motor vehicles; and the failure of both the driving test and most driving instructors to check if a driver understands that this Blind Spot actually exists!
Let's be clear on this issue: Just because you observe the red light laws, it doesn't mean you are safe from others who don't, whether deliberately, by incompetence, or by the avoidable effects of drink or drugs (recreational or prescription).
In most such incidents it is the cyclist who has to take evasive action to survive, and the motorist who drives on regardless.
When I see a cyclist running a red light, I can be pretty sure they will have made their own risk assessment, and that will be of a higher standard to that of the average motorist protected by their seat belts, crumple zones, side-impact bars, and air bags.
If motorists such as Ann Widdicombe get upset by this, that's fine by me. It means they have suddenly realised they have to be alert to the unexpected when driving, rather than simply being comfortable in their motorised armchair. Maybe that's why they get so upset. We certainly hear little from them about the most common forms of law-breaking - use of mobile phones while driving, breaking speed limits etc etc!
In the world of politics and the media, it's OK to bash minorities not protected by laws concerning race, creed, gender etc, but you must always take the side of the poor downtrodden motorist.
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gar
Re:Jumping Redlights
Yes but racial discrimination in UK is just like Arkansaw, especially for Afro caribs. They leave the next morning .... from many county towns....
Perhaps that is like the motorists after an MIB type accident, make sure you are untraced and leave it to
MIB to pick up the pieces.
Unfortunately if you don't know who knocked you down even they will not pay.
Perhaps that is like the motorists after an MIB type accident, make sure you are untraced and leave it to
MIB to pick up the pieces.
Unfortunately if you don't know who knocked you down even they will not pay.
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mel
Re:Jumping Redlights
Two of my brothers are American Citizens, I spend a lot of time in the USA and am well aware of the rule whereby one can turn right on a Red light providing it is safe to do so, unfortunately that is not legal in this country and if we are to be accepted as serious road users we must obey the law. At least two of the cyclists I saw were heading straight on over the lights, zig-zagging through the traffic, they may not have been involved in an accident themselves but could have caused one.
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pwward
Re:Jumping Redlights
You could ask what is worse, cycling without lights or driving at 35 in a 30 zone? Is it worse for a cyclist to ignore a red light when it is safe or for a motorist to move off on red and amber? What is worse, parking on a pavement or cycling on a pavement? For me someone providing the risk of instant death or maiming is doing something a lot worse by breaking road laws. If the cyclist screws up and goes through the wrong red light it's usually them who pays.
Rules broken on the road have different degrees of wrongness don't they? Speeding rules and those about giving way to pedestrians at side roads and not occupying cyclist advanced stop areas are broken routinely by motorists. One motoring organisation was honest enough to recently admit that the majority of drivers broke the law on the majority of trips.
I ride through a city to work every day and regularly break at least 3 rules; an illegal right turn, riding through a subway and riding on a pavement for 100m that leads to a cycle route. My alternative is a 3 lane motorway roundabout with traffic whizzing around at 40mph... and I want to see my children grow up. I am better at obeying the red light laws now but have healthy respect for those free spirits (especially the teenagers) who cruise through. If it pisses off the motorists great. And when i see the students cycling home without lights I think 'good, at least they are on a bike'. It should be entirely the motorists responsibility to watch for them, they provide the risk, the onus should be on them to lessen the danger.
Neither cyclists or motorists are suddenly going to become all responsible and law abiding. Try cycling in Holland or Denmark, the cycling capitals of the World and you'll see people wobbling through red lights, going the wrong way up one way streets just like here.
Rules broken on the road have different degrees of wrongness don't they? Speeding rules and those about giving way to pedestrians at side roads and not occupying cyclist advanced stop areas are broken routinely by motorists. One motoring organisation was honest enough to recently admit that the majority of drivers broke the law on the majority of trips.
I ride through a city to work every day and regularly break at least 3 rules; an illegal right turn, riding through a subway and riding on a pavement for 100m that leads to a cycle route. My alternative is a 3 lane motorway roundabout with traffic whizzing around at 40mph... and I want to see my children grow up. I am better at obeying the red light laws now but have healthy respect for those free spirits (especially the teenagers) who cruise through. If it pisses off the motorists great. And when i see the students cycling home without lights I think 'good, at least they are on a bike'. It should be entirely the motorists responsibility to watch for them, they provide the risk, the onus should be on them to lessen the danger.
Neither cyclists or motorists are suddenly going to become all responsible and law abiding. Try cycling in Holland or Denmark, the cycling capitals of the World and you'll see people wobbling through red lights, going the wrong way up one way streets just like here.
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mel
Re:Jumping Redlights
We cyclists are in the minority and motorists in the majority, the vast majority of motorists if not out and out hostile to us are at least irritated by us, even if it's just for holding them up while trying to overtake. A lot more people listen to and watch Clarkson than to any of our campaigners so why give him bullets to fire at us? Also, any political party who came up with a scheme to get cyclists off the road would have a big vote winner from those millions of motorists in the UK. By the way, theres also the reluctance of cyclists to give hand signals and not giving audible warning of their approach to pedestrians, two more annoyances.
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gar
Re:Jumping Redlights
Galactic cycling.
Would there be any laws for a cyclist who pedals through the galaxies, or would he have it all to himself?
Would there be any laws for a cyclist who pedals through the galaxies, or would he have it all to himself?
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mel
Re:Jumping Redlights
Clarksen will be burning up the Galaxy before we get there, he's probably negotiating his passage with Sir Richard as we write.
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Pedalling Pete
Re:Jumping Redlights
Mel, didn't the government give millions to Sustrans to spend 'cos their schemes help get cyclists off the road. That would surely be the government's answer if challenged by the electorate on such a givaway to cyclists.
So long as the CTC stands up for cyclists' rights to use the roads, the club can only expect a few peanuts from the government, in the form of handouts for cycle training schemes etc.
So long as the CTC stands up for cyclists' rights to use the roads, the club can only expect a few peanuts from the government, in the form of handouts for cycle training schemes etc.
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nes
Re:Jumping Redlights
"they provide the risk, the onus should be on them to lessen the danger"
exactly!!! x
exactly!!! x
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Andy Tallis
Re:Jumping Redlights
"By the way, theres also the reluctance of cyclists to give hand signals and not giving audible warning of their approach to pedestrians, two more annoyances."
An IAAM factsheet informs motorists that cyclists' ability to signal is limited and thus they should try to anticipate our actions from our road position: www.iam.org.uk/Pressroom/Fact_Sheets/pdf/fac17001.pdf
Motorists need only flick a switch to signal. They can continue to signal while steering/braking/accelerating/gear changing/on a bad surface/on an icy road/ while lookingbehind over either shoulder or in the mirrors. A cyclist cannot.
The highway code clearly states that if a cyclist looks over their right shoulder it may mean they are about to move out to the right and continues "give them time and space to do so."
Arm signals should be used where they can be but that is by no means all the time when a motor vehicle would. And any driver who does not understand that should simply not be on the road. I wonder how many drivers know the arm signals they are required to use should their indicators malfunction for a left and right turn and slowing down? Or if they know the cyclists' signal for slowing down? I expect older ones do but many younger ones won't.
Audible warning to pedestrians (e.g. bell) can easily be misinterpreted as "get out of the way". Many these days destroy your ability to give a warning by listening to loud music via earphones. I have had to virtually shout and still not been heard.
An IAAM factsheet informs motorists that cyclists' ability to signal is limited and thus they should try to anticipate our actions from our road position: www.iam.org.uk/Pressroom/Fact_Sheets/pdf/fac17001.pdf
Motorists need only flick a switch to signal. They can continue to signal while steering/braking/accelerating/gear changing/on a bad surface/on an icy road/ while lookingbehind over either shoulder or in the mirrors. A cyclist cannot.
The highway code clearly states that if a cyclist looks over their right shoulder it may mean they are about to move out to the right and continues "give them time and space to do so."
Arm signals should be used where they can be but that is by no means all the time when a motor vehicle would. And any driver who does not understand that should simply not be on the road. I wonder how many drivers know the arm signals they are required to use should their indicators malfunction for a left and right turn and slowing down? Or if they know the cyclists' signal for slowing down? I expect older ones do but many younger ones won't.
Audible warning to pedestrians (e.g. bell) can easily be misinterpreted as "get out of the way". Many these days destroy your ability to give a warning by listening to loud music via earphones. I have had to virtually shout and still not been heard.
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mel
Re:Jumping Redlights
I doubt if many (any?) of our UK motorists have ever read anything about cyclists in the Highway Code and probably never been asked a question on it when taking a driving test, does anyone know if there have been any questions in the written driving test with regard to cyclists specifically? I can't remember ever approaching pedestrians wearing headphones but I must admit that groups of elderly ramblers do close ranks and try to make passing them as awkward as possible, even when I warn them of my approach, I would consider ramblers as being more anti-cyclist that motorists, perhaps they all work for the BBC.
I can't recall ever being in a position where I couldn't give a hand signal whilst riding my bike but if I might bore you with an incident which I was involved in myself a couple of years ago whilst riding along the coast road near Pensarn towards Towyn. I wanted to make a right turn, I looked over my right shoulder and saw a car approaching at not to fast a speed and quite some distance behind me, so I stuck out my right hand to indicate I was going to pull into the middle of the road, before I turned sixth sense made me check over my shoulder again and that saved my life, the driver clearly had no intention of allowing me to turn, he seemerd oblivious to my presence, I aborted the turn and as the car passed by I looked at the drivers face, he was a very elderly gent, with those dentures which look so big he couldn't close his mouth properly and spectacles which made his eyes look like large opaque saucers, he sailed past me, in a seemingly trance like state, without giving me the slightest attention, I often wondered afterwards if he was in fact already dead and just driving along until he ran into something.
I can't recall ever being in a position where I couldn't give a hand signal whilst riding my bike but if I might bore you with an incident which I was involved in myself a couple of years ago whilst riding along the coast road near Pensarn towards Towyn. I wanted to make a right turn, I looked over my right shoulder and saw a car approaching at not to fast a speed and quite some distance behind me, so I stuck out my right hand to indicate I was going to pull into the middle of the road, before I turned sixth sense made me check over my shoulder again and that saved my life, the driver clearly had no intention of allowing me to turn, he seemerd oblivious to my presence, I aborted the turn and as the car passed by I looked at the drivers face, he was a very elderly gent, with those dentures which look so big he couldn't close his mouth properly and spectacles which made his eyes look like large opaque saucers, he sailed past me, in a seemingly trance like state, without giving me the slightest attention, I often wondered afterwards if he was in fact already dead and just driving along until he ran into something.