Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

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anothereye
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby anothereye » 12 Jun 2009, 7:24pm

Ratatouille wrote:It's at junctions that special care is needed. If the cyclist is staying on the D/C and a car is leaving by a left-hand slip road, then it goes without saying that the car must not endanger the cyclist. That means: no overtaking and then cutting across. No undertaking and clipping from behind (one of these must have happened in poor Marie's case: I do not know which).
The first driver to hit Marie was overtaking whilst indicating left (police at inquest: "most drivers would have done the same thing").
Ratatouille wrote:In fact some sections of the A23 used to be like that, before it was upgraded (though it had a 60mph limit). I often used to cycle along it when it was like that. I didn't feel particularly threatened, though it was a far from pleasant ride.
This is a big part of the problem; roads are upgraded and cyclists are faced with the choice of more dangerous roads or slower routes (some of which can be just as dangerous if narrow and bendy).

Gerry
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workhard

Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby workhard » 12 Jun 2009, 9:16pm

Go stand on the bridge overlooking the three lane carriage way of that stretch of the A23 and count the vehicle movements per minute. Then factor in the speed of the vehicles to take into account longer reaction/braking distances and then tell me if you really think a road like that is less risky then an 'ordinary' dual carriageway. I assume none of you are actuaries!

Would you in all seriousness suggest that it is some sort of safe for someone to cycle in the second (middle) lane of a motorway class road, which is effectively what you are doing at the start of the slip lane (nb it is a slip lane NOT a slip road), in comparison with a) the parallel and separate cycle path adjacent to the N bound carriageway which is part of the national cycle network or b) the surrounding relatively traffic free country lanes.

I didn't say in my earlier post that this is one of the most accident prone junctions on the road between Crawley and Brighton (source: serving Sussex police traffic patrol officer who is a family member). I've witnessed on fatal accident there involving three vehicles. The A23 now carries nearly 4 times the number of daily traffic movements than it did before the upgrades mentioned, the avg speeds have increased but general driver ability remains what it was; pretty ruddy poor.

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EdinburghFixed
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby EdinburghFixed » 13 Jun 2009, 8:26am

workhard wrote:Go stand on the bridge overlooking the three lane carriage way of that stretch of the A23 and count the vehicle movements per minute. Then factor in the speed of the vehicles to take into account longer reaction/braking distances and then tell me if you really think a road like that is less risky then an 'ordinary' dual carriageway. I assume none of you are actuaries!


Well, I'd assume that the risk increases linearly with volume? However, I speak as both a driver and a cyclist when I say that the least stressful overtaking I've experienced has been on "full on" motorway style roads. On the other hand I've had some real moments on ordinary A-roads with oncoming traffic and poor visibility. You have to factor the quality of overtaking into any decision, the quantity alone tells half the story.

Even at 90mph there is plenty of time for a driver to see, and overtake safely, a cyclist in the carriageway. If that was not the case then drivers doing 70mph would be coming perilously close to me on normal roads, which they hardly ever do!

I don't know anything about the A23 so I can't comment on it specifically.

workhard wrote:Would you in all seriousness suggest that it is some sort of safe for someone to cycle in the second (middle) lane of a motorway class road, which is effectively what you are doing at the start of the slip lane (nb it is a slip lane NOT a slip road), in comparison with a) the parallel and separate cycle path adjacent to the N bound carriageway which is part of the national cycle network or b) the surrounding relatively traffic free country lanes.


Well, I don't know. To answer your question we would need to find out how many cycling incidents there have been on the A23 VS the surrounding roads, which is information I don't have, and then weight it by the distribution of cyclists. My local stretch of the NCN is not gritted, swept or maintained in any way, so it's not always such a practical choice for travel. In fact the only serious incident I have had on my 6,000 miles of commuting has been on the cycle path!

Personally, I would not choose to ride out from the left-most lane (whatever it's doing) as drivers rely on the fact that slower moving traffic will be to their left, not to their right, particularly on a multi-lane road. So in my opinion, there was a failure of roadcraft by the cyclists in this incident, although I think the behaviour of both drivers was inexcusable and prosecution should have ensured.

stoobs
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby stoobs » 14 Jun 2009, 11:20am

anothereye wrote:
stoobs wrote:I drove past yesterday, looking for the bike. To no avail as I now understand.
Hey stoobs; where the pictures still on the posts and were there any flowers there? Last week I transplanted an Orange poppy from my garden (used to be Maries' garden as well), I hope it will come into flower and spread itself over time.
Do you drive that way often? If you do I would appreciate if you could keep us posted.

thanks

Gerry


I couldn't see anything, I'm afraid, but I'll take another look when I next go past, which will be soon.

rower40
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby rower40 » 14 Jun 2009, 7:33pm

Ratatouille wrote:Oh and I love this comment someone added to that news story in the Argus:
So, do you think the Cenotaph should be knocked down? After all, it's a memorial and it's right in the middle of a road...

And the soldiers commemorated by the Cenotaph weren't killed in Whitehall! (Mind you, perhaps the decisions taken nearby were a contributory factor.)

(Sorry for coming to this one late)
"Little Green Men Are Everywhere... ...But Mostly On Traffic Lights."

stoobs
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby stoobs » 15 Jun 2009, 12:56pm

And what about these at the entrance to Brighton?

Perhaps the HA should take these down, too?
Image Attachments
A23_pylons_1992_ts.jpg
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nanas
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby nanas » 17 Jun 2009, 2:09am

anothereye wrote:Update:Tribute to dead cyclist on A23 removed by Highways Agency:
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/4431244.Tribute_to_dead_cyclist_on_A23_removed_by_council_bosses/
The Argus.co.uk - Brighton,UK

Gerry

How very, very insulting. Just one after the other. As if having the drivers that killed Marie walk off as if they had done nothing wrong had not been enough, now they can't even allow some good come after it all.

And then they wonder why we feel utter contempt for our "authorities".

dave holladay
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby dave holladay » 11 Jul 2009, 2:29pm

Whilst not delivering the justice of a conviction for criminal driving behaviour there should surely be a civil case, especially for the following driver who caused the death of Marie by driving into her.

If a robust case can be made and an exemplary figure achieved for the civil recompense it might send out a message for more of these cases where the driver is acquitted for the driving offence but can still be held liable for the outcome.

Dave

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anothereye
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby anothereye » 15 Jul 2009, 7:07pm

Copy of email to martin.wright@highways.gsi.gov.uk
Dear Sir,
RE : A23 GHOST BIKE
The Coroner has replied to our solicitor Penny Knight to confirm that work is progressing on the A23 and that temporary signs for cyclists hvae been put in place. We hope that all the measures will progress as planned. We will be following this progress extremely closely and wish to inform you that if these do not go ahead as promised we will be repeating our media campaign and reinstalling a ghost bike or other commemorative emblem to remind you of us. We, Marie's parents, have NOTHING to lose in taking this type of action.
We also particularly wanted to inform you that in France certain authorities themselves place black ghost-like silhouettes to indicate a place where a road death has occurred and believe you me, these signs are there to make drivers think rather than to provoke accidents!!! We therefore doubt that your primary motive for removing the ghost bike was for the safety of drivers, but rather that it is due to the embarrassment of knowing that the dangerous nature of your roads has been pointed out to you in such a way.

Regards,
Jacques and Dominique Vesco
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EdinburghFixed
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby EdinburghFixed » 23 Jul 2009, 12:04pm

dave holladay wrote:Whilst not delivering the justice of a conviction for criminal driving behaviour there should surely be a civil case, especially for the following driver who caused the death of Marie by driving into her.

If a robust case can be made and an exemplary figure achieved for the civil recompense it might send out a message for more of these cases where the driver is acquitted for the driving offence but can still be held liable for the outcome.

Dave


Won't that just cost the driver their insurance excess though? (For us, this is £0).

By all means I agree with the action but I'm not so sure of the deterrent effect.

dave holladay
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby dave holladay » 23 Jul 2009, 2:14pm

There are a number of penalties which would go against the driver, depending on the nature of the civil claim the insurer may decline to cover the costs becuase teh insured was acting in a manner which voided the policy. But we might consider that the drivers were covered and so they loose their NCD, and pay the appropriate excess, and I would expect that their insurer would also want to review offering a new policy and if so what the premium might be.

Of course this will also put up the cost of insuring motoring in general and prompt insurers to do more to manage their risk, in driver asessment/training and weighting policy costs against high risk drivers. Slowly we may well change thinking about those sneaky speed cameras and 'laws that pick on the motorist'

thirdcrank
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby thirdcrank » 23 Jul 2009, 2:27pm

Drivers of company vehicles - and that includes a lot of lorry drivers - have fleet insurance where the a claim has no direct effect on their own insurance (although they should notify their own insurer that they have had a collision.) I think that this is where a police prosecution is likely to have most effect because a lot of driving jobs depend on having a clean driving licence - because of the requirements of the fleet insurance.

mporter
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby mporter » 13 Nov 2009, 11:54am

This was an awful awful tragedy. I was at the inquest and will never forget it. I wish I could have done more. I have recently written on the subject of the shortcomings of our criminal justice system.
http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com/2009 ... lture.html

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anothereye
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby anothereye » 19 Apr 2010, 2:53pm

link to news from Marie's family and friends:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36490&p=290738#p290738
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anothereye
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Re: Ghost bike for Marie Vesco

Postby anothereye » 7 Jun 2010, 7:05pm

Marie Vesco memorial ride & horrible NCR's:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38435
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