Should CTC join campaigns for 20mph?

[Tom Richardson]

there's a big difference, schools have hundreds of kids going in & spilling out the gates all at the same time in a very small area usually near to a main road. There are far more cars stopping/going/overtaking etc whilst been actively distracted.

but is the risk any greater outside schools? You can't move for 4x4s here at school start and finish (genuinely - I have to wheel my bike up the path to get past). Traffic speed are consequently very low and the road crossing is managed by a school crossing patrol. Meanwhile, a quarter mile away drivers pass the very few kids who still walk to school along the 500mm wide footpath at speeds far in excess of the 30mph limit. The risk is obvious but getting drivers to care about it is a step beyond possibility.

Where did I say take them off the road? Compulsary training in hazard perception needn't mean you have to stop driving but that you attend x amount of classes within x period of time

that was my suggestion. you would have to wouldn't you or else drivers would continue to ignore their training, or in many cases be incapable of following it. How much training does it need, for example, for people to know not to use a hand held mobile while driving?

[Tonyf33]

As far as I see it yes, far greater than on the majority of ordinary residential roads. Obviously it's different in different areas I just comment from having lived in both city & more rural/surburban towns. I'd just prefer a better long term strategy hopefully changing the way both government & motorists perceive cyclists and the threat they create through poor driving & often disgraceful planning. Reducing the speed limit across towns & cities will just annoy drivers further it certainly would me as a car driver unless there was an increased risk factor to justify it (outside schools at arrival/leaving times etc) it won't actually make our journey any better, faster or perceptively safer IMO.

Whilst It's not physically practical to remove drivers from the road whilst going to several classes over a set period of weeks it wont happen so Its never going to be an issue one way or the other.

[SP]

One of my favourite quotes is something like this:

The feature of the car culture is that it regards the world and all the people in it as merely in it's way.

The imperative that car drivers should face as little inconvenience as possible has taken over our public spaces and communities.

The modern use of cars is bad for individuals and for communities, it is bad for the envirnoment locally and globally. Individuals are rarely as impatient or rude when on foot as they can be while in their cars. And meanwhile, on average, the population gets steadily fatter.

Perhaps CTC members fall into two fundamental groups. Those who are basically car drivers who cycle as an excellent form of leisure or sport, and those who feel that cycling, as a form of personal transport, is a better alternative to the car, for many reasons, and can often replace the car.

The point from which the 20mph speed limits are attractive is that of the pedestrian, the cyclist, the parent of small children, or indeed the staff in the accident and emergency department. Unfortunately, the majority only see the proposition from the point of the driver - as a potential inconvenience.

This is where many think we need to catch up with some of our european neighbours.

Regards,

Steve

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Rebalance/

[Pete Owens]

Yes, Indeed it should campaign on this in priority to all other issues.
We need to reclaim city streets as places places for the local population to enjoy and not simply as conduits for motor vehicles, with humans treated as second class citizens.

20 mph is the maximum speed that we as as a species are adapted to deal with. Both in terms of survivable collisions - ( our bodies evolved to cope with crashes at maximum running speed) and perception - (it is pretty much the maximum we can judge objects trajectory). This is the maximum speed that we can operate at in a natural environment, and it is only by greatly simplifying the environment that drivers can move at greater speeds.

This works fine on Motorways, where we can regulate the road layout so that you know exactly what to expect a mile in front. We have strict rules so that everything on your carriageway is moving in the same direction and rules about which lanes to use to overtake.

However, towns are very complex with all sorts of movements and desires going on. At 30 mph, drivers cannot possibly take in all that they need to in order to make safe progress, but because we have allowed highway engineers free hand in designing our streets, they give the impression a highly predictable highway to drivers that 20mph feels slow to them. those drivers that claim they can cope with this are abdicating responsibility for the safety of their vehicle. Yes, they may be able to handle the gentle and predictable turns that have been designed for them, but there is no way that they can avoid any unanticipated hazards. They simply expect everybody they are passing to anticipate their movements and keep out of their way.

[Swizz69]

Reducing the speed limit across towns & cities will just annoy drivers further it certainly would me as a car driver unless there was an increased risk factor to justify it (outside schools at arrival/leaving times etc) it won't actually make our journey any better, faster or perceptively safer IMO.

All depends on how you look at it Tony. No doubt many people would get annoyed - driving at no more than the limit through a local 20 annoys those using it as a rat run hanging on my bumper no end.

Its not unusual to hear that the pace of life is too fast. Its not unusual to be told by someone that its too dangerous to let their kids near the roads. Its not unusual for the same people to contribute to both problems by getting behind the wheel and behaving as if on some kind of mission

Bring back the Cadbury's Caramel adverts (Take it Easy)

As for better & faster, again it depends. A car driving through an average 30 zone will be accelerating and braking between one junction to the next, often joining the back of a queue.

Plodders always catch up a junction. They are usually pretty chilled out too compared to the picture of aggression in the car in front. The plodders car takes less of a hammering too. The guy in front might feel great about getting away from the lights first but what has he gained in reality?

[Swizz69]

The feature of the car culture is that it regards the world and all the people in it as merely in it's way.

Very true. Jez Clarkson is a good example of this when he is ranting about caravans Must confess to enjoying BBC Topgear - its very entertaining but admittedly does nothing to change drivers from manic to mild

[Swizz69]

but because we have allowed highway engineers free hand in designing our streets, they give the impression a highly predictable highway to drivers that 20mph feels slow to them.

The vehicles can be at fault also for muting the feeling of speed.

Then theres the drivers opinion on how they should drive. An old neighbour of mine once told me she couldn't stick to 30 mph in her Escort. She blamed the car as its 5th gear felt better around 40. "Why not use a lower gear?", I offered. The look returned was one of, "Have you been drinking?", with the authorative explanation that, "You are supposed to get into top gear!".

But then thinking about it, my driving instructor insisted that I got into top gear too

[Ben Lovejoy]

20 zones can be appropriate in certain locations, but a blanket/default 20mph limit would suffer the same problem as any artificially-low limit: drivers would spend more time staring at their speedos than they do looking at the road.

It's like SPECS sections on motorways. I absolutely hate them as I spend half my time trying to avoid being side-swiped by vehicles wandering in their lane because they're not looking where they're going.

Ben

[paulah]

Reducing the speed limit across towns & cities will just annoy drivers further it certainly would me as a car driver unless there was an increased risk factor to justify it

it will annoy them but the reality is that it'll make little or no difference to their journey times. I can cycle to work in the same amount of time that it takes to drive, and that's when the traffic is free flowing, mostly because I catch the cars up at the frequent traffic lights. Going home I go down side roads because the main route is barely crawling.

[Pete Owens]

20 zones can be appropriate in certain locations, but a blanket/default 20mph limit would suffer the same problem as any artificially-low limit: drivers would spend more time staring at their speedos than they do looking at the road.

If you cannot control your speed AND keep fully aware of all that is going on around you then you are not fit to hold a driving licence. If you think 20mph is an "artificially low" limit for a complex built environment shared with vulnerable road users is not capable of judging an appropriate speed for the circumstances.

It's like SPECS sections on motorways. I absolutely hate them as I spend half my time trying to avoid being side-swiped by vehicles wandering in their lane because they're not looking where they're going.

I suspect the reason you actually hate them is that they are effective; you cannot game them by slamming on your brakes when you see the big yellow box.

[Ben Lovejoy]

If you cannot control your speed AND keep fully aware of all that is going on around you then you are not fit to hold a driving licence.

If I were world dictator, the requirements for holding a driving licence would be much more stringent, but I am not, and they are not. We have to deal with the world as it is, not as we would wish it to be.

It's like SPECS sections on motorways. I absolutely hate them as I spend half my time trying to avoid being side-swiped by vehicles wandering in their lane because they're not looking where they're going.

I suspect the reason you actually hate them is that they are effective; you cannot game them by slamming on your brakes when you see the big yellow box.

If you were a betting man, you'd be broke.

The reason I hate them is as stated.

[Pete Owens]

it will annoy them but the reality is that it'll make little or no difference to their journey times. I can cycle to work in the same amount of time that it takes to drive, and that's when the traffic is free flowing, mostly because I catch the cars up at the frequent traffic lights. Going home I go down side roads because the main route is barely crawling.

Actually, reducing speed limits will improve journey times as it makes the traffic run more smoothly.
It is easier to slot into gaps in traffic when the traffic stream is flowing more slowly so you increase the capacity of the junctions. With slower traffic there is less need for traffic lights and formal pedestrian crossings - and this further improves the traffic flow.

And this is before you factor in the reduced traffic volume due to all those potential cyclists who are currently too scared to ride and the children that are driven to school due to parental fear of traffic.

[Pete Owens]

If you cannot control your speed AND keep fully aware of all that is going on around you then you are not fit to hold a driving licence.

If I were world dictator, the requirements for holding a driving licence would be much more stringent, but I am not, and they are not. We have to deal with the world as it is, not as we would wish it to be.
.

You don't need to be a dictator to tear up your own licence.
As I said if you cannot control your speed and keep fully aware of all that is going on ...
Or are you saying this is a fictional class of other drivers who will be made safer by letting them drive at whatever speed they like.

While this claim parroted from the late lammented P*** S**** is often made by drivers who resent being required to drive at an appropriate speed - I have yet to meet one who claims that they themselves drive that way - or indeed that the task of controlling their speed is in any way difficult. Indeed it is a self resolving problem, as any driver who fixates on their speedo will remove themselves from the gene pool when they come across the first bend on an open road .

The sort of drivers who actually behave that way are about as common as the sort who resent specs cameras because other drivers drifting across the lanes.

[Ben Lovejoy]

Eh? I can see no connection between what I wrote and your reply. You appear to be inventing a straw man and arguing with him ...

[SP]

Regarding the supposed hazards of watching the speedo, unless a driver pays no regard to speed they always need occasionally to check their speedo. 20mph is no different - generally second gear gives that speed at reasonable revs and engine note gives rough feedback as to speed. Only when people forget that the speed limit is just that - the maximum , not a precise target to constantly maintain - only then is there a problem.

All this still keeps the debate as From the drivers viewpoint. I doubt that in a 20mph zone one would hear pedestrians, cyclists, parents of young children or elderly residents saying "gee, the traffic here sure is too slow these days!"

It's not just the drivers who count.

Regards

Steve

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