A place to record cyclists using trains

[Slowroad]

27th August 2011 Nottingham to Bristol, one bike, loaded with camping gear. Both legs reserved for me and for bike. Stood with bike in doorway area all the way to Birmingham as wheelchair user and friends occupying wheelchair/bike space (this is not a grumble). Had to keep moving bike and got in the way a lot. Delays meant it was a mad dash to catch my connection at Birmingham New Street - if I'd not been there before I doubt I'd've made it. Then had to take all my luggage off and hang bike up. Got to sit down, but not in my reserved seat which was several coaches off.
Return journey Taunton - Bristol, Bristol - Derby both meant putting bike in guard's van then dashing round to the passenger part of the train. They did tell me not to worry, they knew there was a bike booked and wouldn't leave me behind! Again reserved seat coaches off, but wasn't a problem.
Missed connection Derby - Nottingham as did scenic route via Lichfield. This section not reservable anyway. Three bikes already on train, very little official space. Ticket collector grumbled that he wouldn't have let me on if he'd seen how many bikes were on the train already. True I was blocking the corridor a bit, but if I'd waited for the next train that could have been full too. The solution is to make sure I get a connection via Birmingham and not use services which don't do reservations!
Things are a bit better than they were a few years ago but still train design more than anything else is hindering bicyle use. The train where I had to hang my bike up had a luggage area next door which would have fitted three bikes, and luggage could have gone on shelves in the bike bit. Having a wheelchair/bike space is OK if there's only wheelchairs or bikes, obviously the wheelchair user has to have preference. The guards van is OK but I do like to be able to see what's coming out at the stations in case it's my bike! Would rather keep an eye on it, though this is probably townie paranoia!

[fimm]

One Saturday a few weeks ago my boyfriend and I took road bikes by train from Haymarket station to Glenrothes With Thornton station, had a pleasant cycle, and returned from Thorton to Haymarket. The trains on this route have bike spaces but you can't book them. On our outward journey the train was extremely quiet and we were the only people with bikes. The train on the return leg was rather busier - when we got on we found the only cycle space was occupied by parents and children with a twin buggy and a couple of ordinary buggies. We stood with our bikes in the door for a couple of stops and then the woman with the twins got off. The train guard then appeared and asked the man who still had a buggy in the bike area to move it so we could put our bikes on the rack, which we did. 2 men with mountain bikes also got on, one of those went on the rack and the owner of the other just stood with it. They were also only on for a few stops. We then went and sat in the adjacent carriage. When we came to get off at Haymarket we found two other people with bikes standing in the door - we all got off at Haymarket. As far as I am aware, the train guard didn't make any issue about the extra bikes.

I also need to comment on the rolling stock on the Airdrie to Bathgate route. This is my regular commute route (Haymarket to Livingston North) for which I use a Brompton. We now have a 4 trains an hour service, which is a great improvement on the half-hourly service we did have. It is true and unfortunate that the new electric trains do not have dedicated cycle storage, however most users of full-sized cycles take them to an area near the toilets where they can be stacked together in some way which appears to be stable (I believe some people find an alternative use for their helmet and use the strap to secure it to some rails...!) I've stood with my road bike in one of the door areas which was OK. I usually fold the Brompton because it is stable in its folded state and I can just leave it in the door and go and sit down - the doors only open on one side between Haymarket and Livi North (though they open on the other side at Waverley which I have to remember on the occasions I go through to there).

[Rob Archer]

I use First Capital connect and travel from Downham Market to Kings Lynn every day at 13.04. There are usually 4 or 5 bikes on the train. On the occasions I have used the service from London I have counted up to 20 bikes (+folders) in one 4 car train! Usually they board at Cambridge and get off at Ely. Therre is no specific bike space, but plenty of space betweeen the doors.

[pal]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned (apologies for repetition if so), but the new (refurbished?) rolling stock on the Manchester Victoria -- Blackpool line (Northern Trains) has one of the neatest bike storage set-ups I've seen on a UK train: it's a slightly segregated section at the end of the carriage, with slots for bike wheels recessed into the partition wall between storage area and seating area (extending into the vacant space behind the last set of seats in the carriage, if that makes sense); additional straps stop the bikes falling/wheels bending; there are spaces for four bikes. There are a couple of flip-up seats in that space too, but they look so off-puttingly uncomfortable that I don't think anyone would sit there unless they were really desperate. Altogether, a really nice job. (Though I was the only cyclist making use of it on the 08.22 from Manchester last Saturday.)

On the way back, I picked up the Transpennine Express (Glasgow -- Manchester Airport) at Lancaster: as usual, it was packed, and the bike area was stacked high with the luggage of those heading to the airport. There were two bikes (including mine) on the train, and we stood in the doorway for the whole journey: a bit annoying, but better than nothing (and the guard was quite relaxed about it). I wonder why Transpennine don't abandon their official rule of requiring cycle reservations, since in practice it seems to me that they just operate a 'get on if there's space' policy (actually, the only time I've failed to squeeze onto this service was the one time I had a reservation!).

[dave holladay]

pal - various types of Northern Train on the Blackpool route, but the refurbished class 156's have heeded a lot of ideas which were input by cyclists. The sliding doors have been completely removed from the cross-passages by the end doors, and this make it much easier to get around the corner (at least 4" wider opening). At the toilet (opposite) end the wide door and additional wheelchair space means that a tandem will fit and a bike or two will fit opposite the wheelchair space. 6-8 bikes on the 'bike' end if a group co-operate and stack them neatly. I need some good pictures of this type in use. Worth also counting up the bikes and passengers - you'll be at least 10% of the total with bikes.

For TPE (Class 185) go to the First Class end (with the big toilet) as there are 2 spaces with tip up seating and tip-up seating by the toilet. You'll get another 4 bikes in there if no wheelchair users travelling (and guard usually has the wheelchair users pre-booked). For some trains you get 6 carriages in place of 3. Yellow coupler as with Voyager and Pendolino at First Class end. up to 5 bikes will fit herringbone-style in bike space. Again cyclists often exceed 10% of passenger count.

Rob Archer - FCC has had to drop the shutters on one morning train to CBG - the 4 coach Class 365 Networkers have 242 seats, and this one was arriving in CBG full & standing PLUS 23 bikes 15 conventional 8 folders, essentially 2 conventional bikes per door plus 2 folders per carriage. was slowing up boarding, and the train could not be extended (no through corridor to another unit and only 4-coach platforms. The bike counts were done by traincrew for FCC.

fimm- (do you post on Edinburgh Cycling?) The Class 334 Junipers - use centre carriage by pantograph end - were used on Ardrossan Boat trains - roughly 260 seats, and for 14.15 Boat Train I'd regularly count 13-15 bikes and 120-130 passengers. The service often runs with 6 carriages so load of room off-peak. Class 334's transferred to Airdrie Line, worth using to get through services to Balloch & Milngavie without having to change at GLQ.

Ayrshire and N Berwick have the new Class 380. Generous bike space (5 tip up seats vice Class 185 = 4) - opposite cab end to pan (over accessible toilet) - outer door, but area by accessible toilet there is complete side of the saloon with tip-up seats (12?) which can accommodate cycles. Some trains have 2 units (3 & 4 carriages because the carriage length has been increased from 20 to 23 metres, an 8 x 20 metre coach train has to become a 7 x 23m one to fit the platforms and signal spacings. But 23m vice 20m means lighter trains overall and at last moving back from lardbucket designs. Oh and the clue is in the triangle over the cab-end windows on the bike carrying carriage.

Do not leave the Brompton and sit down without having a beady eye on it lest it 'walks'

[dave holladay]

The Severn Beach line commuters - reverse flow mainly from Stapleton Road to Avonmouth or Severn Beach is popular for cycle-rail commuting. No sane person would leave a bike parked overnight on open racks at Severn Beach & Avonmouth, and employment locations can be 2-3 miles from station with no realistically serious/viable bus services.

The current Class 142 trains are good for cycle carriage and frequently clock 12-14 bikes peak load on the morning train (current record loading 17 bikes conventional & folding, with a total count day revealing 37% of passengers travelling with bikes) The Class 142 has 102 seats and 2 carriages. Inbound loading however see 150+ passengers cramming on to these less than comfortable trains - see commentary from bromptonrail To remedy this the line is getting secondhand Class 150 trains from Birmingham with more seats but less flexibility for bike carriage (apart from the Class 150's on the Blackpool-Manchester Airport route with 1 bay of the saloon given over to tip up seats and a luggage rack).

The commuters have a running log of cycle carriage on the line to show the current and suppressed demand for a connected cycle-rail-cycle product. Andy Short working at Filton North is a CTC point of contact.

Other routes of interest where commuter counts and solidarity may be useful in making a case for better arrangements to carry bikes or park them securely for long periods include Bristol-Cheltenham (both stations remote from places people need to be) Sheffield-Leeds (again where the bike gives fast and direct links to places people live & work) and Newcastle Durham. All generally see the Cross Country staff showing a pragmatic tolerance of BIXC (bikes in excess of capacity - to match PIXC for passengers not seated/standing at the designed levels).

[pal]

I need some good pictures of this type in use. Worth also counting up the bikes and passengers - you'll be at least 10% of the total with bikes.

I'll try to remember to take some pictures next time I'm heading up that way (and get lucky with one of the nice trains -- as you say, it's still a bit of a lucky dip on that line). Interesting to hear that Northern consulted with cyclists about the design -- it did strike me as being unusually sensibly laid out, so that would explain it! (Good on N. Trains, though: they always strike me as one of the more enlightened TOCs).

Thanks for the TPE tip too: will keep that in mind...

[dave holladay]

Northern has 3 cycling forum meetings per year. Secretariat is provided by Sustrans and CTC volunteers. I suggested this with quid pro quo of free travel for secretariat at start so we could use the 2003 base line data for station cycle parking survey to deliver a more comprehensive resource of the 400+ Northern Rail managed stations (20% of UK total) to include connections to NCN, local council contacts etc.

Chair is now Northern Rail manager who has had Damascene conversion to cycling. originally Paul Salveson, long term CTC member and initiator of Community Rail partnerships.

Most meetings include a bike ride to see routes around local stations or similar, and bring PTE, local councils, Northern Rail and other rail industry people, and cycle advocates/businesses, together.

Would be great to get a few more forums with this sort of structure and commitment.

Northern Rail is not an enlightened TOC - its just 50% Dutch!

[CarlBateman]

FYI Here's my commute log from the back end of December 2011. The trains either side of the 7:50 can be quite full/packed, but the 7:56 is usually relatively empty.
[Edit] that should read "but the _7:50_ is usually relatively empty", sorry

15/12/11
07:56 Ifield - Three Bridges (Southern) 1 cycle - lot of passengers - conductor challenged but allowed
08:09 Three Bridges - Burgess Hill (Southern) 1 cycle - few passengers - conductor indifferent

18:21 Burgess Hill - Three Bridges (FCC) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor
18:52 Three Bridges - Ifield (Southern) 2 cycles - moderate passengers - no conductor

- = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
16/12/11
07:50 Ifield - Three Bridges (Southern) 2 cycles - few passengers - conductor indifferent
08:09 Three Bridges - Burgess Hill (Southern) 1 cycle - few passengers - conductor indifferent

18:21 Burgess Hill - Three Bridges (FCC) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor
18:52 Three Bridges - Ifield (Southern) 1 cycle - moderate passengers - no conductor

- = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
17/12/11
07:50 Ifield - Three Bridges (Southern) 2 cycles - few passengers - no conductor
08:09 Three Bridges - Burgess Hill (Southern) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor

17:51 Burgess Hill - Three Bridges (FCC) - few passengers - no conductor
18:22 Three Bridges - Ifield (Southern) - vestibule blocked by group of belligerent drunken business men - no conductor

- = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
19/12/11
07:50 Ifield - Three Bridges (Southern) 2 cycles - few passengers - conductor indifferent
08:09 Three Bridges - Burgess Hill (Southern) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor

- = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
20/12/11
18:21 Burgess Hill - Three Bridges (FCC) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor
18:52 Three Bridges - Ifield (Southern) 1 cycle - moderate passengers - no conductor

- = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
21/12/11
07:50 Ifield - Three Bridges (Southern) 2 cycles - few passengers - no conductor
08:09 Three Bridges - Burgess Hill (Southern) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor

18:21 Burgess Hill - Three Bridges (FCC) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor
18:52 Three Bridges - Ifield (Southern) 1 cycle - moderate passengers - no conductor

- = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
22/12/11
07:50 Ifield - Three Bridges (Southern) 2 cycles - few passengers - no conductor
08:09 Three Bridges - Burgess Hill (Southern) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor

18:13 Burgess Hill - Three Bridges (FCC) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor
18:22 Three Bridges - Ifield (Southern) - vestibule blocked by group of drunken business men - no conductor

- = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
23/12/11
07:50 Ifield - Three Bridges (Southern) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor
08:09 Three Bridges - Burgess Hill (Southern) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor

18:21 Burgess Hill - Three Bridges (FCC) 1 cycle - few passengers - no conductor
18:52 Three Bridges - Ifield (Southern) 1 cycle - moderate passengers - no conductor

[dave holladay]

Interesting - this suggests that Southern should have delivered a cordon policy like SW Trains - very useful as there is a Stakeholder meeting on Friday 17th.

If you get an opportunity for pictures even better.

Assessment by your carriage - say 60-70 seats roughly how many filled? This should give sample of whole train % -wise

New cycle centre at Haywards Heath has been proving popular £120 for annual pass to secure parking

Discussions for Brompton hire units - as in Guildford on Southern.

Many Thanks - Dave

PS @SouthernRailUK are becoming reasonably good with twitter alerts about problems on the line - real pain with Balcombe Tunnel twice in past month (broken rail & signalling fail)

[fimm]

fimm- (do you post on Edinburgh Cycling?) The Class 334 Junipers - use centre carriage by pantograph end - were used on Ardrossan Boat trains - roughly 260 seats, and for 14.15 Boat Train I'd regularly count 13-15 bikes and 120-130 passengers. The service often runs with 6 carriages so load of room off-peak. Class 334's transferred to Airdrie Line, worth using to get through services to Balloch & Milngavie without having to change at GLQ.
...
Do not leave the Brompton and sit down without having a beady eye on it lest it 'walks'

I've just registered on an Edinburgh cycling forum, also as "fimm". I've been lurking on and off for a bit, getting links from twitter somehow. Not sure if it is the one you mean!
These days I take the Brompton to my seat, having heard one or two stories about them walking. The trains I'm on (especially the morning one) are usually quiet enough to allow this without issue (it does mean that I'm occupying a whole set of seats by the time I've plonked the pannier down as well!).