E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

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drsquirrel
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by drsquirrel »

memopix wrote:
[color=#400040]A complaining cyclist was at the desk of the Police station. He'd kicked the side of a car that forced him off the road in an MCL. The woman driver had phoned the police on her mobile, and he had been arrested, for criminal damage, and initially held in the cells. I presume he hadn't departed the scene as he was convinced the driver was at fault.

The officer said " There is no proof that she was in the cycle lane but there is a mark from your foot on the door of her car".


That sucks hard, I would call self defence on this.

Was he just prosecuted, or held? If prosecuted for it... probably didn't have a very good lawyer :p
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orbiter
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by orbiter »

memopix wrote:The officer said " There is no proof that she was in the cycle lane but there is a mark from your foot on the door of her car".

Of course if we had the "3 foot to pass" rule there would have been proof that the car was illegally close.[/color] Unless of course the cyclist had exceptionally long legs...


...or swerved towards to car to deliberately kick it.

Under current 'rules', the HC, if the car had been witnessed approaching the bike that close, there might be a case against the driver but without a witness the police response is sadly understandable.
PRL
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by PRL »

reohn2 wrote:For any one who wishes my petition is now available to sign here:- http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/5feet-or-more/

Please understand that it is purely a counter measure against the 3ft petition that the OP invited us to sign.
I've no doubt my petition will eventually be consigned to the round file in the corner but I feel I cannot stand by and let a petition such as the 3ft one stand a chance of being made law,however slim that chance is,so anyone who feels the same as myself feel free to sign and please pass the word around.
Thank you one and all.



Sorry I will not be signing. -There have been complaints that the 3 ft rule would prevent overtaking in some lanes, a 5 ft rule would do that in most of them. Yes I would like 5 ft but accept I can be safely overtaken at low speeds with less clearance. Anyone giving less than 3ft clearance to a moving cyclist is driving dangerously and should be prosecuted.
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Phil_Lee
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by Phil_Lee »

reohn2 wrote:For any one who wishes my petition is now available to sign here:- http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/5feet-or-more/

Please understand that it is purely a counter measure against the 3ft petition that the OP invited us to sign.
I've no doubt my petition will eventually be consigned to the round file in the corner but I feel I cannot stand by and let a petition such as the 3ft one stand a chance of being made law,however slim that chance is,so anyone who feels the same as myself feel free to sign and please pass the word around.
Thank you one and all.


Signed.

I would accept a driver passing closer, but only when specifically invited to do so by the cyclist being overtaken.
But that would have to come with a limit on the tailgating, or drivers would try to intimidate cyclists into inviting them past.
George Riches
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by George Riches »

PRL wrote:Sorry I will not be signing. -There have been complaints that the 3 ft rule would prevent overtaking in some lanes, a 5 ft rule would do that in most of them. Yes I would like 5 ft but accept I can be safely overtaken at low speeds with less clearance. Anyone giving less than 3ft clearance to a moving cyclist is driving dangerously and should be prosecuted.

How about a 1.5m rule if the motorist is traveling at more than 40 mph?
kwackers
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by kwackers »

George Riches wrote:
PRL wrote:Sorry I will not be signing. -There have been complaints that the 3 ft rule would prevent overtaking in some lanes, a 5 ft rule would do that in most of them. Yes I would like 5 ft but accept I can be safely overtaken at low speeds with less clearance. Anyone giving less than 3ft clearance to a moving cyclist is driving dangerously and should be prosecuted.

How about a 1.5m rule if the motorist is traveling at more than 40 mph?


Making it more complex reduces the chances of a successful prosecution.

Make it illegal at 1.5m then leave it up to the discretion of the police/witness as to whether it was dangerous or not.
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by George Riches »

Leaving things to police discretion can lead to claims of discrimination. Also there's the issue of cycle lanes. It's often thought that 1.5m is adequate (DfT think narrower ones are ok!), but a 1.5m lane only allows no more than 1m clearance.

Police and courts have had extensive experience with speed detection devices, so I don't think the use of them will be a major issue. Certainly not compared to distance detection - where, to date, there has been no history of use.

The speed of the overtaker is quite a critical issue. As with cyclists overtaking pedestrians.
kwackers
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by kwackers »

George Riches wrote:Leaving things to police discretion can lead to claims of discrimination. Also there's the issue of cycle lanes. It's often thought that 1.5m is adequate (DfT think narrower ones are ok!), but a 1.5m lane only allows no more than 1m clearance.

Police and courts have had extensive experience with speed detection devices, so I don't think the use of them will be a major issue. Certainly not compared to distance detection - where, to date, there has been no history of use.

The speed of the overtaker is quite a critical issue. As with cyclists overtaking pedestrians.


Speed is easy to measure, distance less so. It's the sort of offence where prosecutions ultimately rely on a 3rd parties view rather than some easily quantifiable but difficult to measure (and thus enforce) parameters.

Hence 1.5m being as good as anything. Why 1.5m? Because it's not that far and you need to be significantly (and obviously) within that distance before you become a danger making prosecution simpler. Whilst speed is a factor I see no need to add another parameter which as far as I can tell would only muddy the waters.
james01
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by james01 »

kwackers wrote:[]

Making it more complex reduces the chances of a successful prosecution.

Make it illegal at 1.5m then leave it up to the discretion of the police/witness as to whether it was dangerous or not.


I agree. There are inevitably occasions on narrow roads when it will be acceptable to pass closer, with speed reduced accordingly.
As a start point for a written "Bill of Rights for Cyclists", the 1.5m suggestion seems reasonable. Although prosecutions would be incredibly rare, the new rule backed up by reminder signs and other publicity may actually impress upon motorists the importance of giving us our 1.5m of safety room.
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meic
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by meic »

Maybee we could learn from Johny Foreigner here.

France is an absolute pleasure to cycle in, one of the reasons is that they have a 1metre minimum passing distance in towns AND a 1.5metre passing distance out of towns.
How is that for a sensible compromise?

It isnt universally obeyed but if you experienced a close overtake over there it was a better than 50-50 chance the car that did it has GB on the back.
Yma o Hyd
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by George Riches »

meic wrote:France is an absolute pleasure to cycle in, one of the reasons is that they have a 1metre minimum passing distance in towns AND a 1.5metre passing distance out of towns.
How is that for a sensible compromise?
.

To avoid the issue of what exactly is countryside and what not, it could be 1.5m where the speed limit is 40 mph or more, 1m where the speed limit is lower.

A blind eye could be employed on high speed roads for clearances between 1.0m and 1.5m where the overtaker was driving at less than 30 mph .
voujan
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by voujan »

Well done reohn2 for setting up the 5ft petition. Now it needs to get some publicity. I have been discussing this on another cycle forum and have put a link to your petition. Also I have emailed a few people at work and since I sent it out 3 hours ago, three have signed. There will be a lot more in the coming days.

Why I think this is important:
Having a law, or even the publicity of considering such a law, will make drivers aware of the current Highway Code. That might be enough to affect some drivers. The 1.5m law seems to apply in other countries like France, Spain and Germany quite well. The 3ft campaign says it supports 3ft as a minimum but would expect more in faster speed limits, but this is not the impression it is giving out. I cycle predominantly in 50+ speed limits, I do not want someone cycling near me wearing a 3ft shirt suggesting to motorists that it is ok to ignore the Highway Code and put my life at risk. If I had to swerve to avoid something in a 60 zone and a car passed at 3 ft there would be a problem. At the moment it would be clear from the Highway Code that the motorist was negligent. If 3ft was the law this would be over-ruled. If the 3ft campaign is serious in saying they want greater distance in faster speeds then I hope that they are advising their supporters to only wear the shirt in the 30mph zone. As with speed limits, drivers will drive to that, and slightly over regardless of road and weather conditions. If they have 3ft in the brain, 2.5 feet at 70mph in the rain is what you'll get.

It has been pointed out that in some places such as single track roads, there is not enough room to pass therefore 5ft is not a feasible campaign. Well if it is impossible, of course, normal rules don't apply. The important thing is if the motorist is aware of the 5ft law he will be grateful when you signal him to pass. Just like motorists will agree to disobey the Give Way sign when letting a car out a side street in rush hour. Who has ever been prosecuted for that? It has also been pointed out that in urban areas with 30mph or less 3ft is enough. Fine, 5ft is the law, except when overtaking at UNDER 30mph when the minimum is 3ft. That way the psychology is if you need more room, slow down. It's perfectly workable. Now come on folks, get behind the petition!
voujan
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by voujan »

This is the email I'm sending out. Feel free to copy and paste:



The Highway Code says that motorists overtaking a cyclist "should" leave the same distance as they would when overtaking a car. This is generally reckoned to be about 5 feet or 1.5 meters. The Highway Code is not law but only guidelines for road safety. In the UK police are unlikely to try and enforce this rule since there is no clear law, and more importantly, motorists are often ignorant of this rule. In France, Germany, Spain, and other European countries, the 1.5m passing distance is law and carries a charge of dangerous driving if breached. Consequently motorists are better informed and road signs display this information. There is currently an e-petition to bring the UK up to the standard of other European countries on this issue by making 5ft the minimum legal passing distance. Please sign it and pass it on to other cyclists (or any potential cyclists who need this to get them started).


http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/5feet-or-more/
reohn2
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by reohn2 »

Voujan
Thankyou for explaining(in your first post) what is in my mind far better than could :? ,I don't know if this will ever become law,I suspect not but would rather see a petition for 5ft(1.5m) get more signitures than one for a 3ft(900mm) rule which,to my mind would be absurd for the reasons you've outlined.
Thanks again :)
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voujan
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Re: E-Petition: 3 Feet 2 Pass

Post by voujan »

US 3ft passing guru backs 1.5m rule for UK and challenges CTC to do likewise.

Hey reohn2, your petition is getting some publicity!


http://road.cc/content/news/10940-us-3f ... dolikewise
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