Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

hamster
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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby hamster » 5 May 2010, 3:17pm

Well that's fairly bleeding obvious. You can park 6 bikes in a space left by one car.

BUT, that doesn't mean that parking for 6000 bikes will generate even more... :roll:

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drsquirrel
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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby drsquirrel » 5 May 2010, 9:26pm

hamster wrote:Well that's fairly bleeding obvious. You can park 6 bikes in a space left by one car.

BUT, that doesn't mean that parking for 6000 bikes will generate even more... :roll:


Maybe they are referring to accessibility? ie. more people go there because it's more bike friendly.

As for spending more, isn't it shown that cyclists by average are higher earners? (also they might have more money to spend when not using a car!).

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frank9755
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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby frank9755 » 8 May 2010, 7:32pm

Car drivers do get subsidised, and there are bigger ones at work than the 50p parking rebate. Many councils, sometimes in the (mistaken) belief that supermarkets bring jobs and prosperity to their towns, use tax revenues to do things for supermarkets - such as build new access roads, provide land for car parks and bend planning rules.

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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby reohn2 » 8 May 2010, 8:09pm

flat tyre wrote:When I pay for my shopping in my local town centre Waitrose supermarket they ask me if I have a car parking ticket, this is because if you have, you get 50p back off your shopping. I presume this means that by shopping there I am indirectly subsidising car drivers. My only alternative is Tescos which also offers the same deal, different car park. If we need to encourage people to exercise, cut down carbon emissions etc shouldn’t the cyclist/pedestrian shopper be given the 50p rather than the motorist?


Coming in late on this excuse me if its been covered.
Surely the motorists are only get back the 50p they've paid as the idea of the refund is make some money out of motorists using the car park and not using the supermarket,I don't see how this is anything to do with cyclists being exploited,or am I missing something?

If I wanted to complain about parking I'd complain about the parking charges at The Christie Hostpital where we have to take my sister regularly for treatment,it costs £1.50p for four hours,last week we were there 10hrs=£6 or our local Hospital wher Mrs R2 goes for occasional check ups.Where the car park charge is £1.70 for six hours but her appointment rarely lasts longer than 11/2 hours and the ticket is not (supposed to be)transferrable.
After chatting to one of the nurses I found out that staff have to pay too.
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drsquirrel
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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby drsquirrel » 9 May 2010, 12:21am

reohn2 wrote:
flat tyre wrote:When I pay for my shopping in my local town centre Waitrose supermarket they ask me if I have a car parking ticket, this is because if you have, you get 50p back off your shopping. I presume this means that by shopping there I am indirectly subsidising car drivers. My only alternative is Tescos which also offers the same deal, different car park. If we need to encourage people to exercise, cut down carbon emissions etc shouldn’t the cyclist/pedestrian shopper be given the 50p rather than the motorist?


Coming in late on this excuse me if its been covered.
Surely the motorists are only get back the 50p they've paid as the idea of the refund is make some money out of motorists using the car park and not using the supermarket,I don't see how this is anything to do with cyclists being exploited,or am I missing something?

If I wanted to complain about parking I'd complain about the parking charges at The Christie Hostpital where we have to take my sister regularly for treatment,it costs £1.50p for four hours,last week we were there 10hrs=£6 or our local Hospital wher Mrs R2 goes for occasional check ups.Where the car park charge is £1.70 for six hours but her appointment rarely lasts longer than 11/2 hours and the ticket is not (supposed to be)transferrable.
After chatting to one of the nurses I found out that staff have to pay too.


I think most people realise that if they have read through the thread.

You should feel lucky, our Hospital is £2 for an hour £3 for the next, etc (it does drop off a bit). There is a car park 200-300m which is generally £1 cheaper (and various nurses park here). But, if you leave there late (4am the last time) the barriers are open (after 12pm), doesn't exactly help for appointments though.

Considering that the £1-a-day parking is almost as close to the town, I have no idea why people even want to park in the Hospital car park (news is they are thinking of dropping the charges).

Granted none of the supermarkets near here charge for parking (a few have 2hr limit stays though).

What I do, park across town (1/2 to 3/4 mile) in the £1-all-day and walk there. :p I reckon other staff there will be doing this as well.

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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby reohn2 » 9 May 2010, 1:03am

drsquirrel wrote:
I think most people realise that if they have read through the thread.

Forgive me, it didn't seem obvious

You should feel lucky, our Hospital is £2 for an hour £3 for the next, etc (it does drop off a bit). There is a car park 200-300m which is generally £1 cheaper (and various nurses park here). But, if you leave there late (4am the last time) the barriers are open (after 12pm), doesn't exactly help for appointments though.

Considering that the £1-a-day parking is almost as close to the town, I have no idea why people even want to park in the Hospital car park (news is they are thinking of dropping the charges).

Granted none of the supermarkets near here charge for parking (a few have 2hr limit stays though).

What I do, park across town (1/2 to 3/4 mile) in the £1-all-day and walk there. :p I reckon other staff there will be doing this as well.


Why should I feel lucky for being charged for what is actually mine(and everyone else's too for the purpose of hospital visiting and treatment),I could understand it to an extent if people were using hospital car parks for none hospital purposes but that could easily be stopped by a simple attachment to appointment cards,to be displayed in windscreens.
I find it incredible that hospital workers have to pay to park their cars to go to work.
Perhaps you think its fair for patients and workers to have to pay,if so I find that very puzzling :? ,
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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby mw3230 » 9 May 2010, 8:02am

A few years ago the car parking at our local general hospital was free and the level of car crime was high. A decision was made to impose parking charges but to use some or most of the revenue on improving security. This was done and security including cameras, guards and car park entrance and exit barriers were installed. Car crime is now virtually non existent. I know that the levels of car crime have fallen generally but the measures taken at the hospital certainly had a significant prevention effect at the time.

Nowadays the car parking charges are commensurate with those already mentioned in other posts. The neighbouring streets are exclusively for holders of residents parking permits and they are regularly patrolled by Council parking enforcers which means that there is no alternative parking within a reasonable distance of the hospital.

Now that the security exists and crime does not it would seem fair that the price of the parking could be reduced but it has not been. We must assume that the income from the car parks is of importance in balancing the budget of the hospital and as such is vital. There seems no prospect of the charges being removed or reduced.

To return to the topic of the OP, I am wondering how long it will be before all supermarkets and other stores with large car parks succumb to the temptation to levy charges for the use of their parking, using the argument that the charges help reduce costs and therefore help to keep prices down. Most already have a maximum length of free stay beyond which a charge is made.
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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby reohn2 » 9 May 2010, 8:47am

mw320
The reason (as I'm sure you're aware)that hospital car park charges haven't been reduced is because its a very profitable side line for you local trust,instead of the trust being properly and responsibly funded by taxes.
Taxes which the rich pay less of and the poor pay more and more, either indirectly ie hospital car park charges,etc, or other stealth taxes,which if you're a rich man is a pittence but if you happen to be at the bottom end of the scale and unable to work, perhap due to your illness,will find much harder to pay.

Back to the OP,which IMO is a red herring,as it costs nothing to park a bicycle or a car at local supermarkets once the ticket has been refunded for the car driver.
It could be argued that good bicycle parking would be an asset to any supermarket for the sake of local polution levels,congestion,safety.Parking which could be a requirement at planning level,some councils may alread require such planning where I live they don't,well not to aany kind of standard anyway,such as in a prominent position in full view of checkouts,where shoppers can see that shopping by bike can be a reality,and where thieves are less likely to strike.Supermarkets could also give bikes priority to anyone cycling on their car parks.
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Les Reay
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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby Les Reay » 9 May 2010, 10:08am

As a general comment on subsidising motorised transport, some years ago the Environment Agency website reported that British drivers paid about £20 billion in taxes etc. to the state each year but the cost to us all was about £50 billion. This consisted of costs arising from congestion delays, the consequences of accidents and treatment to victims, emergency services, the effects of traffic pollution and noise on health, pollution damage to building structures, etc. etc. not to mention paying for the infrastructure.

In effect, the 'polluter pays' principle barely extends to motorised transport and we all share the cost and suffer the consequences, including a reduced life expectancy.

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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby drsquirrel » 9 May 2010, 11:26am

reohn2 wrote:
drsquirrel wrote:
You should feel lucky, our Hospital is £2 for an hour £3 for the next, etc (it does drop off a bit). There is a car park 200-300m which is generally £1 cheaper (and various nurses park here). But, if you leave there late (4am the last time) the barriers are open (after 12pm), doesn't exactly help for appointments though.
....


Why should I feel lucky for being charged for what is actually mine(and everyone else's too for the purpose of hospital visiting and treatment),I could understand it to an extent if people were using hospital car parks for none hospital purposes but that could easily be stopped by a simple attachment to appointment cards,to be displayed in windscreens.
I find it incredible that hospital workers have to pay to park their cars to go to work.
Perhaps you think its fair for patients and workers to have to pay,if so I find that very puzzling :? ,


I mean lucky that it's much better than some other places...


Don't worry... I also find it crazy that hospital workers have to pay the same (I'm not against you on this and I didn't intend for it to look like that).

Although, how many other people going to work have to pay to park too? The all day parking I was referring to is the popular choice for people working in the city (£5 a week, bargain surely?). You could argue why is it fair that hospital staff get free parking when other sectors don't? Also, if a hospital car park is free... what incentive do hospital staff have, not to fill up the hospital car park that (in our case) is mostly full even when staff park across town?

Parking based on appointments makes sense to me too, although I can see a few ways this could be abused. Collecting some kind of ticket to leave the barrier on exit would help with free ranging entry, otherwise anyone parking against the terms would need to be pursued for a fine, possibly through the courts.

I still don't think all hospital visitors should be demanding free (or any) parking, note here that I say all, there should be some kind of priority. Even my wife who is 35 weeks pregnant will take the 3/4mile walk across town, if she can do it someone with wrist nerve damage (random example) can do the same too. Including visitors of patients... what kind of illness is stopping them from walking "a little bit". Again this might only apply to our case here due to the parking arrangements which might vary for yourself and others.

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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby reohn2 » 9 May 2010, 6:24pm

Les Reay wrote:As a general comment on subsidising motorised transport, some years ago the Environment Agency website reported that British drivers paid about £20 billion in taxes etc. to the state each year but the cost to us all was about £50 billion. This consisted of costs arising from congestion delays, the consequences of accidents and treatment to victims, emergency services, the effects of traffic pollution and noise on health, pollution damage to building structures, etc. etc. not to mention paying for the infrastructure.

In effect, the 'polluter pays' principle barely extends to motorised transport and we all share the cost and suffer the consequences, including a reduced life expectancy.


I take your point about pollution the car causes and the cost of that but successive gorvernments have done little to remedy this.
The problem in the UK is other forms of transport ie; public transport,which is predominantly the alternative, is disgraceful to say the least so people are left with little choice but the car.Given that its Hobsons choice for hospital appointments and visiting,hospital parking is in fact a stealth tax IMO and an unpopular one at that,something with which I agree.
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Les Reay
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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby Les Reay » 9 May 2010, 6:48pm

Agreed, public transport is third-rate in the UK, but for many people, nothing will entice them onto a bus, even if it is quicker and cheaper than by car.

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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby reohn2 » 9 May 2010, 6:55pm

drsquirrel wrote:
I mean lucky that it's much better than some other places...


I take your point.


Don't worry... I also find it crazy that hospital workers have to pay the same (I'm not against you on this and I didn't intend for it to look like that).

OK,so we're agreed then.

Although, how many other people going to work have to pay to park too? The all day parking I was referring to is the popular choice for people working in the city (£5 a week, bargain surely?).


But not on the site they work on,eg; factory workers,etc.
I used to work for British Coal until it was demolished,the chance of BC changing its employees to park on its sit was nil as it would have cost them dearly in lost production due to a strike,and rightly so IMO.
The problem with the health service is that the people running the show know their workforce won't strike over such an issue(infact any issue) do to its duty of care to the patients they are involved in healing.That is the true reason health care proffessionals have to pay for their parking IMO.

You could argue why is it fair that hospital staff get free parking when other sectors don't? Also, if a hospital car park is free... what incentive do hospital staff have, not to fill up the hospital car park that (in our case) is mostly full even when staff park across town?


Health care workers need to get to work at very unsocial hours to tend to people in need of attention sometimess at short notice.

Parking based on appointments makes sense to me too, although I can see a few ways this could be abused. Collecting some kind of ticket to leave the barrier on exit would help with free ranging entry, otherwise anyone parking against the terms would need to be pursued for a fine, possibly through the courts.

As I have already pointed out a simple system of an tear of attachment to the a patient's appointment letter with appoinment time and date,no card £20fine.
I still don't think all hospital visitors should be demanding free (or any) parking, note here that I say all, there should be some kind of priority. Even my wife who is 35 weeks pregnant will take the 3/4mile walk across town, if she can do it someone with wrist nerve damage (random example) can do the same too.


But should she and other patients need to!!
[/quote]Including visitors of patients... what kind of illness is stopping them from walking "a little bit". Again this might only apply to our case here due to the parking arrangements which might vary for yourself and others.[/quote]
You assume there is parking other than the hospital car park within walking distance of all hospitals,there clearly isn't.
Here is another system.My sister, suffering from termnial cancer, can for her chemotherapy either ask me and my wife to drive to Christies in Manchester and pay for parking,or book an ambulance (private car driven by a volunteer)total cost to her nil,she chooses to have someone with her who she knows and to help her with what can be a traumatic day.Which takes more out of our health service?
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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby reohn2 » 9 May 2010, 7:01pm

Les Reay wrote:Agreed, public transport is third-rate in the UK, but for many people, nothing will entice them onto a bus, even if it is quicker and cheaper than by car.


If the means is in place to travel then they have no excuse,so using the car unecessarily could be penalised and the advantages and reasons for public transport made clear, as I said at present the choice is Hobsons!
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drsquirrel
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Re: Cycling to Subsidise Car Drivers

Postby drsquirrel » 9 May 2010, 7:31pm

reohn2 wrote:
Parking based on appointments makes sense to me too, although I can see a few ways this could be abused. Collecting some kind of ticket to leave the barrier on exit would help with free ranging entry, otherwise anyone parking against the terms would need to be pursued for a fine, possibly through the courts.


As I have already pointed out a simple system of an tear of attachment to the a patient's appointment letter with appoinment time and date,no card £20fine.

I still don't think all hospital visitors should be demanding free (or any) parking, note here that I say all, there should be some kind of priority. Even my wife who is 35 weeks pregnant will take the 3/4mile walk across town, if she can do it someone with wrist nerve damage (random example) can do the same too.


But should she and other patients need to!! Is this a question? I'm not denying some deserve/need/etc parking.

Including visitors of patients... what kind of illness is stopping them from walking "a little bit". Again this might only apply to our case here due to the parking arrangements which might vary for yourself and others.


You assume there is parking other than the hospital car park within walking distance of all hospitals,there clearly isn't.
Here is another system.My sister, suffering from termnial cancer, can for her chemotherapy either ask me and my wife to drive to Christies in Manchester and pay for parking,or book an ambulance (private car driven by a volunteer)total cost to her nil,she chooses to have someone with her who she knows and to help her with what can be a traumatic day.Which takes more out of our health service?


You assume that all departments use the same appointment letters, if any at all (I've called up and gotten an appointment that had no letter due to short notice). As for setting a fine, you then have to enforce that fine, if someone refuses to you have to take them through the courts and they won't get back all their costs of doing this. I do think this system (along your lines) suits the best though, it just needs a unified system for the hospital. Either letter, or ticket given when booking in for an exit barrier.

And I do say *all* don't deserve free parking, so some do and some don't, I'm not suggesting what should and what shouldn't cound. I know that the first day parking when someone goes in to give birth is free, maybe some other departments here do the same. And obviously this must depends from hospital to hospital.


Regarding alternative parking, I do note above that other hospitals might not be the same as what I am referring to and situation will vary. You need to complain and petition to the hospital in question as there is less likely to be an overall decision on to make it free, try for the specific departments you think are important and maybe they will back you to whomever "decides" on the system for parking.


From our hospitals cycle lock ups, it seems that a lot cycle in... it is PACKED, I reckon they need more, even the front "patient" cycle spaces are pretty full. I do wonder how many of them cycling are now cycling just because they started charging the few years ago? And how many would pack it in when parking now becomes free?