A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

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BeeKeeper
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle...

Post by BeeKeeper »

Difficult one. He was driving within the speed limit and presumably his tyres were fine otherwise he would have been done for that. The case does show how vulnerable you are on two wheels.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle...

Post by roubaixtuesday »

I was a victim of a very similar accident, happily at a *much* lower speed, and whilst very unpleasant I’d fully recovered within a few weeks.

The thing that strikes me is a fundamental lack of understanding of how road conditions affect vehicle handling. Cars are much more dangerous in the wet than dry.

My reflection on this is that it’s not so much an issue of criminality – although the driver, by definition, clearly was going too fast for the conditions.

It’s more an issue of training. Drivers don’t really understand how much their vehicles differ in their handling in the wet. Riding a bike in the wet has taught me a huge amount about the need for caution in the wet when driving, it’s very obvious on two wheels how different grip is.

Compulsory skid pan training pre driving test, and also compulsory re-training for drivers at regular intervals generally might help avoid some of this type of accident. I don’t see any tightening up of driver training at all likely. I’m not sure what the CUK position on driver training is?
roubaixtuesday
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle...

Post by roubaixtuesday »

It turns out that the CTC (sorry CUK) (sorry Cycling UK) does indeed advocate for driver re-training.

13 CTC believes that the Government should seriously consider introducing a system that
is far less reliant on self-declaration and, instead, automatically calls in all drivers for a practical
and theoretical re-test at regular intervals. Through this, drivers should be asked to
demonstrate that they are aware of the prevailing rules and that they still meet the required
driving standards. Those who fail should be expected to engage in refresher training. This
system would also help the authorities identify those whose medical fitness fails the set
criteria.
1.14 It seems likely that re-testing older drivers may be particularly beneficial in road safety
terms, although the optimum frequency of re-testing for all age groups should be based on
research and evidence, e.g. in the case of older drivers, on when reaction and hazardperception
skills typically start declining.


http://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/ ... rategy.pdf
Mike Sales
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle...

Post by Mike Sales »

If a death occurs on the railway, or in the air a serious inquiry is made into how it happened, complete with recommendations to stop it happening again. On the road though, the attitude is that this sort of thing happens, and it's nobodies fault. I think that is not good enough. This guy was suddenly killed in the middle of life, but it seems that road transport goes on killing without any attempt to stop it happening again.
Is the conclusion really that road transport is so important that we accept the death toll, and the maimings? What makes it so different from the railways or from air travel?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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531colin
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle...

Post by 531colin »

Mike Sales wrote:If a death occurs on the railway, or in the air a serious inquiry is made into how it happened, complete with recommendations to stop it happening again. On the road though, the attitude is that this sort of thing happens, and it's nobodies fault. I think that is not good enough. ....... What makes it so different from the railways or from air travel?


Easy question.
On the road its an "accident" because the magistrate, judge, jurors, MPs etc. all think "I drive, so it could happen to me, so it's "nobody's fault" and so on.
Rail and air travel are somebody's job, so any mistakes are followed up, rectified, punished, etc.
An adult driving a ton of metal runs down a child pedestrian. ....no problem,
A midwife drops a baby.....can you imagine the fuss?
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pjclinch
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by pjclinch »

I think Colin's take has a lot going for it. The sheer ubiquity of motoring as an everyday thing in so many lives has led to us being rather blasé about it (similarly, it is because cycling has lost that ubiquity in the UK that everyone's got to thinking you need a to be dressed in YELLOW! and wearing a crash helmet).

Actual risks and dangers have become very secondary to perceived ones, and because so many drive without a second thought it isn't really thought of as dangerous. I mean, we might crash but there's the crumple zone, seatbelt and airbag so the main worry is the no-claims.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Vorpal
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Vorpal »

Colin's theory does have something going for it, but then what about professional drivers? HGV drivers and others on the job are given similar punishment to other motorists.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Stevek76
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Stevek76 »

e.g.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Bristol-bus-driver-crashed-81-year-old-leaving/story-29334517-detail/story.html

"It was daylight. The complainants were visible. They were wearing relatively bright clothing. They were halfway across the road.

It is the Crown's position that the defendant – as he turned the bus into the street as they were crossing – was not looking the right way. This was a momentary lapse of concentration."
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jochta
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by jochta »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ox ... e-36435543

35 months for causing death by dangerous driving. She left her victim by the side of the road to die and then lied to police that her car had been stolen. Oh and she was drunk.

Let me repeat that for you. Thirty five months.

She got 14 months additional for perverting the course of justice. Fourteen is not much less than half of thirty five.

The cyclist would probably have survived if she'd stopped to help him.

BTW the road she did this on is on my cycle commute to work.
jochta
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by jochta »

There's more on the above case here....

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/145332 ... _999_call/

I'd forgotten all about her creating a petition on change.org after her crimes with the following text...

"I think it should be a legal requirement for a cyclist to wear a helmet and fluorescent clothing! As a driver it's illegal not to wear a seatbelt and receive a fine. Cyclists should have the same responsibility. I have been involved in an accident with a cyclist and he unfortunately died. He wasn't wearing a helmet or reflective clothing and had flashing lights."

...it was taken down shortly afterwards.
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Graham
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Graham »

jochta wrote:I'd forgotten all about her creating a petition on change.org after her crimes with the following text...

Abdication of responsibility from a despicable individual.

The veneer of civilisation is wafer-thin and possibly getting thinner.
jochta
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by jochta »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36482414

How does a gust of wind cause a van to hit a cyclist from behind? Even if that were true he couldn't have been taking into account the conditions whilst driving. Convicted of causing death by careless driving and gets six months suspended sentence and a 12 month ban.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Cause amputation through careless driving: £625 fine.

Dinsdale said:
“I am hugely disappointed by the decision of the court which finds that despite the evidence that I was visible to the driver, he should not be handed a more substantial sentence given the impact his actions have had on my life.

“Every aspect of my life remains difficult and my inability to return to work or pursue my sporting and active lifestyle is an immense loss to me and causes me great distress.”


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... r-625-fine
Icsunonove
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Location: Hampshire

Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Icsunonove »

http://www.andoverandvillages.co.uk/andover-news-in-andover-and-villages/4857-shock-sentence-for-cyclist-death

Perhaps there are further facts from the trial yet to be reported but on the face of it this seems shockingly lenient.
5 month suspended sentence and 250 hours 'unpaid work' for a hit and run that resulted in the death of a cyclist.
Stevek76
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Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Stevek76 »

Problem is the cyclist died so there's zero evidence to push a dangerous/careless driving charge since no witnesses. The chap could simply have insisted the cyclist rode into him. For some ludicrous reason the maximum sentence for failing to stop is 6 months, not even sure he got a driving ban? That really needs to be modified in cases where a party is seriously injured. It shouldn't matter even if in a hypothetical situation where a cyclist was completely at fault. To leave someone dying on the road is surely grounds for long term revocation of driving licence at minimum.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
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