A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

thelawnet
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thelawnet »

12 months for running down a pedestrian and leaving him to die, covering up the crash

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey ... e-19910870

Same driver was previously sentenced to a longer sentence of 14 months in a YOI after deliberately driving the wrong way down the motorway for 9 miles, presumably just to exhibit his psychopathic tendencies

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ng-way-m25
mikeymo
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Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by mikeymo »

thelawnet wrote:12 months for running down a pedestrian and leaving him to die, covering up the crash

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey ... e-19910870

Same driver was previously sentenced to a longer sentence of 14 months in a YOI after deliberately driving the wrong way down the motorway for 9 miles, presumably just to exhibit his psychopathic tendencies

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ng-way-m25


To be precise, he was actually only sentenced to four months for the dangerous driving. At least that's my interpretation of the news article.

This puts my suggestion that we should have fewer jury trials and more judge trials in doubt. As it was a judge who decided the sentence.
Last edited by mikeymo on 25 Feb 2021, 5:15pm, edited 1 time in total.
thirdcrank
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thirdcrank »

In defence of the judge, they have probably adhered closely to the sentencing guidelines which relate to perverting justice here. ie The sentence for things like leaving the vehicle with a friend has been in line with something like swapping speed camera points.

Our law on stopping and reporting accidents includes no legal requirement to help a crash casualty. It's a moral issue.

The query must be on whether he scarpered because he was intoxicated. The linked report says something along the lines that because of technology, the police were able to know what he was up to before and after the crash. Perhaps the guidelines should be altered to come down hard on anybody unable / unwilling to cover this at mitigation time.
thelawnet
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thelawnet »

mikeymo wrote:
thelawnet wrote:12 months for running down a pedestrian and leaving him to die, covering up the crash

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey ... e-19910870

Same driver was previously sentenced to a longer sentence of 14 months in a YOI after deliberately driving the wrong way down the motorway for 9 miles, presumably just to exhibit his psychopathic tendencies

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ng-way-m25


To be precise, he was actually only sentenced to four months for the dangerous driving. At least that's my interpretation of the news article.

This puts my suggestion that we should have fewer jury trials and more judge trials in doubt. As it was a judge who decided the sentence.


Judge still sentences in jury trials.

From what I can see the 'dangerous driving' is merely having a car with bald tyres and tinted windows.

Either :

1) the driving wasn't dangerous, and he wasn't at fault (perhaps the pedestrian ran out in front of his car) - unlikely
2) the driving was most likely dangerous, but they can't prove it because of lack of evidence, so he wasn't charged for the driving itself but for other offences
thelawnet
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thelawnet »

thirdcrank wrote:In defence of the judge, they have probably adhered closely to the sentencing guidelines which relate to perverting justice here. ie The sentence for things like leaving the vehicle with a friend has been in line with something like swapping speed camera points.

Our law on stopping and reporting accidents includes no legal requirement to help a crash casualty. It's a moral issue.

The query must be on whether he scarpered because he was intoxicated. The linked report says something along the lines that because of technology, the police were able to know what he was up to before and after the crash. Perhaps the guidelines should be altered to come down hard on anybody unable / unwilling to cover this at mitigation time.


He got 4 months for dangerous driving and 8 months for perverting justice and failing to stop/report an RTA (two offences sentenced together)

The failing to stop offence is made more culpable by:

* Offence committed in circumstances where a request for a sample of breath, blood or urine would have been made had the offender stopped
* Offence committed by offender seeking to avoid arrest for another offence
* Offender knew or suspected that personal injury caused and/or left injured party at scene
* Giving false details

And more harm:

Factors indicating greater harm
* Injury caused
* Significant damage

So it's a Category 1 'failure to stop'.

This carries a sentencing range of community service to 6 months' prison. Anything less than 'more harm' AND 'more culpability' carries no possibility of a prison sentence, and the offender is probably more punished by the points/ban/insurance costs than anything else.

Perverting the course of justice lacks specific sentencing guidelines. However it's worth noting here that Festus Onasanya was sentenced to 10 months for 'swapping points' with the former MP for Peterborough (who was jailed for 3 months for the offence, which related to 41mph in a 30mph zone, a relatively minor offence)

It doesn't seem that, if he had been drunk, the sentencing would be very serious either - the prison sentence is six months for drunken/drug driving, which isn't in itself evidence of 'careless' or 'dangerous' driving.

I suppose at some point there might be evidence of 'careless' or 'dangerous' driving recoverable from a car, but perhaps not generally.

So it does seem to come down the 'perverting the course of justice', which to me seems to have been more serious than 'points swapping' or whatever.
mikeymo
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by mikeymo »

thelawnet wrote:This puts my suggestion that we should have fewer jury trials and more judge trials in doubt. As it was a judge who decided the sentence.


Judge still sentences in jury trials.[/quote]

Yes. I know. That was the point I was making, though clearly failing.

The point being that even if more judge trials led to more convictions, it might not make that much difference if judges in sentencing still hand out such low sentences. Though I suppose at least with a conviction they can at least give a sentence of some sort.

It seems to be the thinking that "short" sentences don't really help. I wonder if it might depend on who is being sentenced. Somebody from an already criminal background, getting a first sentence of a month or so, might very well just find it part of a course into deeper criminality.

But an otherwise "respectable" non-offending (or to be precise non-getting-caught) driver, who gets, let's say a months imprisonment for a drink driving offence might very well think twice the next time she's thinking about drinking and driving.
Jdsk
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Jdsk »

mikeymo wrote:It seems to be the thinking that "short" sentences don't really help.

That's based on pretty good evidence in the UK. For custodial sentences up to six months it's cheaper to use alternatives and they result in less subsequent reoffending. It's probably also true up to twelve months.

On top of that if prisons weren't so overloaded with those serving these short sentences they could do a better job on rehabilitation and education of the others.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thirdcrank »

Perhaps there a different ways in which a prison sentence may be said to "work." I think it was meic who pointed out that a lot of people who might do things like switching points are deterred by the prospect of doing time. The point there being that if it's something involving a bit of planning, then the risk of a deterrent sentence may affect their planning.

FWIW, the dangerous driving didn't relate to the manner of his driving but that the condition of the vehicle made it dangerous to drive.
thelawnet
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thelawnet »

Jdsk wrote:
mikeymo wrote:It seems to be the thinking that "short" sentences don't really help.

That's based on pretty good evidence in the UK. For custodial sentences up to six months it's cheaper to use alternatives and they result in less subsequent reoffending. It's probably also true up to twelve months.

On top of that if prisons weren't so overloaded with those serving these short sentences they could do a better job on rehabilitation and education of the others.


Not sure if it's supposed to help.... If someone's committed a series of attacks like this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ridge.html , then the public want them to be sent to prison even when it's likely the behaviour will continue after being released.

Retribution is high on the list of sentencing goals, and especially with death by driving cases, many of which may not have any rehabilitation element at all.
mikeymo
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by mikeymo »

thirdcrank wrote:Perhaps there a different ways in which a prison sentence may be said to "work." I think it was meic who pointed out that a lot of people who might do things like switching points are deterred by the prospect of doing time. The point there being that if it's something involving a bit of planning, then the risk of a deterrent sentence may affect their planning.


Yes, wasn't that the point about the Chris Huhne case? That points switching is so infrequently detected, that an example had to be made of them.

Also that if you try to get revenge on your husband because he's gone off with another woman, getting him imprisoned for an offence you colluded in might not be the best decision you ever made.

That was my overall point. That "normally respectable" people will very much be deterred from a crime, such as drunken driving, if it means they might have to spend a short time in prison. Whereas points/fine/12 months ban? So what?

Members of the criminal class (if I dare call it that) aren't as terrified of prison. Maybe. This is pretty much all conjecture on my part.
Stevek76
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Stevek76 »

The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Oldjohnw
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Oldjohnw »

criminological research has shown for decades that prison is not a deterrent to criminals: being caught is. Only politicians want more and bigger prisons.
John
Bonefishblues
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Bonefishblues »

Oldjohnw wrote:criminological research has shown for decades that prison is not a deterrent to criminals: being caught is. Only politicians want more and bigger prisons.

I think there's significant public support too.
Oldjohnw
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Oldjohnw »

Bonefishblues wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:criminological research has shown for decades that prison is not a deterrent to criminals: being caught is. Only politicians want more and bigger prisons.

I think there's significant public support too.



Less than you imagine. Study after study demonstrate that the public, when given real scenarios, suggest lighter sentences than those actually given whilst assuming that the actual sentence would have been more lenient that it was.
John
Mike Sales
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Mike Sales »

Oldjohnw wrote:Less than you imagine. Study after study demonstrate that the public, when given real scenarios, suggest lighter sentences than those actually given whilst assuming that the actual sentence would have been more lenient that it was.


I am pleased to read that, but I note that this thread is not called A place to record excessive sentencing for motor vehicle....
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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