A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

ianrobo
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby ianrobo » 28 Jan 2018, 1:02pm

really ? natural justice ?

it is strict liability, it should be a ban but then cry about it and amazing stupid magistrates fall for it because of 'there but the grace of god defence' ....

There is NO justification to drink drive unless with a gun to your head !

Bonefishblues
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Jan 2018, 4:43pm

ianrobo wrote:really ? natural justice ?

it is strict liability, it should be a ban but then cry about it and amazing stupid magistrates fall for it because of 'there but the grace of god defence' ....

There is NO justification to drink drive unless with a gun to your head !

If my drink is spiked without my knowledge can it really be right that I get banned for unwittingly being over the limit (as one example of a defence)?

To not allow such a defence would surely make the law look stupid, and that's unhelpful on many levels.

brynpoeth
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby brynpoeth » 28 Jan 2018, 4:46pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
ianrobo wrote:really ? natural justice ?

it is strict liability, it should be a ban but then cry about it and amazing stupid magistrates fall for it because of 'there but the grace of god defence' ....

There is NO justification to drink drive unless with a gun to your head !

If my drink is spiked without my knowledge can it really be right that I get banned for unwittingly being over the limit (as one example of a defence)?

To not allow such a defence would surely make the law look stupid, and that's unhelpful on many levels.

Then many drunken drivers would claim their drinks had been spiked, who bears the burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt?
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landsurfer
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby landsurfer » 28 Jan 2018, 4:53pm

brynpoeth wrote:Then many drunken drivers would claim their drinks had been spiked, who bears the burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt?


A soft drink spiked with alcohol .... no defence ... only those so stupid they should not be allowed to drive would fail to notice vodka in their coke or orange juice, never mind gin or scotch. Other drugs, rohipnol, etc are a different matter.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Jan 2018, 5:09pm

brynpoeth wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
ianrobo wrote:really ? natural justice ?

it is strict liability, it should be a ban but then cry about it and amazing stupid magistrates fall for it because of 'there but the grace of god defence' ....

There is NO justification to drink drive unless with a gun to your head !

If my drink is spiked without my knowledge can it really be right that I get banned for unwittingly being over the limit (as one example of a defence)?

To not allow such a defence would surely make the law look stupid, and that's unhelpful on many levels.

Then many drunken drivers would claim their drinks had been spiked, who bears the burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt?

Burden is with the person who offers the defence to establish to the Magistrates' satisfaction that that is indeed what happened.

Bonefishblues
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Jan 2018, 5:11pm

landsurfer wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Then many drunken drivers would claim their drinks had been spiked, who bears the burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt?


A soft drink spiked with alcohol .... no defence ... only those so stupid they should not be allowed to drive would fail to notice vodka in their coke or orange juice, never mind gin or scotch. Other drugs, rohipnol, etc are a different matter.

Of course one can spike an alcoholic drink, can't one?

reohn2
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jan 2018, 5:12pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:If my drink is spiked without my knowledge can it really be right that I get banned for unwittingly being over the limit (as one example of a defence)?

To not allow such a defence would surely make the law look stupid, and that's unhelpful on many levels.

Then many drunken drivers would claim their drinks had been spiked, who bears the burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt?

Burden is with the person who offers the defence to establish to the Magistrates' satisfaction that that is indeed what happened.

Which is oh so easy to do it seems :roll:
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ianrobo
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby ianrobo » 28 Jan 2018, 6:05pm

indeed only got to look at the cases where a sob story is given and even with pro's and their excuses for being caught doping, latest one was a US sprinter got off after claiming kissing his GF who was using a banned substance ....

Bonefishblues
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Jan 2018, 6:29pm

reohn2 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Then many drunken drivers would claim their drinks had been spiked, who bears the burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt?

Burden is with the person who offers the defence to establish to the Magistrates' satisfaction that that is indeed what happened.

Which is oh so easy to do it seems :roll:

Is it? How often is it used successfully? Are you saying that it shouldn't be available because there's a risk some may try it on?

Bonefishblues
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Jan 2018, 6:31pm

ianrobo wrote:indeed only got to look at the cases where a sob story is given and even with pro's and their excuses for being caught doping, latest one was a US sprinter got off after claiming kissing his GF who was using a banned substance ....

You may have to explain the relationship between this and what we're discussing because I don't see it tbh.

ianrobo
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby ianrobo » 28 Jan 2018, 6:50pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
ianrobo wrote:indeed only got to look at the cases where a sob story is given and even with pro's and their excuses for being caught doping, latest one was a US sprinter got off after claiming kissing his GF who was using a banned substance ....

You may have to explain the relationship between this and what we're discussing because I don't see it tbh.


excuses mate, one of these links I posted claimed was spiked OJ with Vodka, the doping one, claims kissing, both are equally BS but both enough to make people actually believe it. Do not know about you but if you had enough vodka to drink to take you over the limit you would taste it !

Bonefishblues
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Jan 2018, 7:02pm

ianrobo wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
ianrobo wrote:indeed only got to look at the cases where a sob story is given and even with pro's and their excuses for being caught doping, latest one was a US sprinter got off after claiming kissing his GF who was using a banned substance ....

You may have to explain the relationship between this and what we're discussing because I don't see it tbh.


excuses mate, one of these links I posted claimed was spiked OJ with Vodka, the doping one, claims kissing, both are equally BS but both enough to make people actually believe it. Do not know about you but if you had enough vodka to drink to take you over the limit you would taste it !

Read the case. She had had 3 large wines the previous evening. She would have had some residual alcohol in her system the next morning. It wouldn't necessarily take that much mixed in a pint of orange juice to take her over the limit again - rather exacerbated by her poor sense of smell and taste as a result of her cosmetic surgery.

Convinced 3 Magistrates who actually heard the case, but obviously not a bloke on the internet :wink:

reohn2
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jan 2018, 7:05pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Burden is with the person who offers the defence to establish to the Magistrates' satisfaction that that is indeed what happened.

Which is oh so easy to do it seems :roll:

Is it? How often is it used successfully? Are you saying that it shouldn't be available because there's a risk some may try it on?

I can't give a number of times,but there are quite few examples of drivers with loophole lawyers and sob stories driving around with so many points on their licences as to make a joke of the law.The case driving drunk claiming not knowing they'd drunk orange juice with vodka in it is a particularly laughable example if it weren't so seriously ridiculous :?
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Bonefishblues
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Jan 2018, 7:17pm

One man's"loophole lawyer" is another's upholder of justice I guess - like the case cited earlier of police charging an unconscious man with refusal to provide a sample. If they are so laughably incompetent then no wonder a smart lawyer is able to challenge it, as must be their right in a society that takes the Rule of Law seriously.

To be clear I think that it was a crap outcome, but let's be clear it was the police at fault.

reohn2
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jan 2018, 11:06pm

Bonefishblues wrote:One man's"loophole lawyer" is another's upholder of justice I guess - like the case cited earlier of police charging an unconscious man with refusal to provide a sample. If they are so laughably incompetent then no wonder a smart lawyer is able to challenge it, as must be their right in a society that takes the Rule of Law seriously.

To be clear I think that it was a crap outcome, but let's be clear it was the police at fault.

If the unconscious suspect was so drunk asking him to take a breathtest when he woke up would surely have proved positive,so yes I agree policing standards aren't what they should be by a long shot and for more than one reason.
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