Brighton cyclist jailed

[bovlomov]

I think the argument that 'prison works!' would only apply in a just society.

Look across the pond. Does prison work? Does capital punishment work? In both cases you may argue that it does, but there's no denying that the US is a violent society, and you'd have to argue that it would be more violent still were it not for the harshness of its penalties. More importantly, it is an unequal society. And while many people argue against the idea that poverty is responsible for crime, there's no denying that the legal system treats poor people a lot more harshly than it does the rich.

It's a model I am happy we are not yet adopting.

The justice system is rather like a cycle helmet. It may or may not help after the event, but resources would certainly be better spent on prevention.

But back to the OP, I think this crime could have happened in almost any society, and the large element of bad luck (for both parties) makes it a rather poor example from which to build any theories.

[meic]

At the moment the number of people who actually suffer from the unjust society in this land is low enough that prison does work for the vast majority.
However the government do seem to want to make more people suffer AND reduce Police numbers, asking for trouble really.

[thirdcrank]

.....The draconian punishments existed because there were high rates of crime, not vica-versa.
Also there were high rates of crime because there were extreme causes of crime.

The threat of hanging did not necessarily prevent my great-grandparents from stealing because they were starving to death anyway. The threat of 6 weeks community service is ample deterrent to me because I can afford to buy enough food. ...the threat of jail is quite useful for making people like me tow the line.
I doubt it will make the hotheads keep their temper but they should still go inside or it will spiral rapidly out of control.
It may seem like a good idea not to jail them because it will not do them any good but it is a good idea to jail them because it will do the rest of us a lot of good.

Whenever the prison authorities harp on about jail not helping to stop re-offending they are only concentrating on the tiny minority of hardcore that they deal with. For the vast majority of people the THREAT of jail does a lot of good and the prison authorities pay little attention to that vast majority of people for whom jail does work, very well!

It seems to me that capital punishment for just about everything was because levels of detection were so poor - whenever there was an opportunity to punish somebody they got it in the neck. I suspect that a lot of people were hanged simply because they seemed to be criminal types. With increasing detection rates, it's easier to have punishments that seem to fit the crime. Things are tending to swing back the other way and if it's true that what happens in America today, is here tomorrow, then we could be looking at a return to savage punishments. The process has to be seen as a whole. We share with the US a criminal justice system intended to protect the individual from the state. The tendency seems increasingly to be that an articulate crook can beat the system, so that only the inadequates ever end up suffering the most severe punishments.

I can understand the argument about prison deterring the silent majority but I suspect it's only a rather vague threat since most people have little idea about the length of sentences etc.

[cycle tramp]

Deleted

[iviehoff]

150 years ago we used to think that. People would be hanged or transported to Australia for what today would be considered a minor theft. Yet rates of crime were high in those days. The deterrent effect of draconian punishments is frequently over-estimated by those who have failed to examine the evidence.

I think that this is a bit of back to front logic.
The draconian punishments existed because there were high rates of crime, not vica-versa.
Also there were high rates of crime because there were extreme causes of crime.

The threat of hanging did not necessarily prevent my great-grandparents from stealing because they were starving to death anyway. The threat of 6 weeks community service is ample deterrent to me because I can afford to buy enough food.

That amounts to agreeing with the point that I actually made. Namely, a modest punishment usually suffices to deter those who will be deterred. Those who won'tbe deterred, it usually doesn't matter if it is modest or draconian. So, in relation solely to deterrence, modest punishments suffice and draconian punishments don't make much difference.

But deterrence is not the only reason for punishment, and I suspect this was the point you really wanted to make.

[Cyril Haearn]

He has long hair and a beard. Man, you must have trouble going to Church on a Sunday. Damn, long hair and a beard... just for the record. i have short hair, a beard, many tattoos, and a nose ring. Ah... kinda interested here. Does that make me a thug as well? Am i a thug..?

If you had an avatar with a photo of yourself (such as I have) then we'd be able to judge what kind of person you are.

[Actually, mines a bit out of date and I don't look like that now - I'll post a new one soon.]

Still waiting for an up-to-date photo or drawing

[bovlomov]

[Actually, mines a bit out of date and I don't look like that now - I'll post a new one soon.]

Still waiting for an up-to-date photo or drawing

Blimey! That post was 2011. A lot's happened since then.

I can't remember when I changed the avatar, but I've an idea that this is the up-to-date one. The previous one had no hat.

But anyway, I'm much more handsome now, so I reckon a new likeness is in order. Thanks for reminding me.