Bikes on Trains

[DavidT]

I'm no expert on taking bikes by train, but on a recent (non cycling) holiday break to Munich it was wonderful to see a Regional train with a very large dedicated area for cycles - at least half a carriage! With large logos on the outside, cyclist's must feel somewhat welcomed. Certainly in comparision to the minute logos (and minute space inside) on my local East Midlands trains.

[Richard Mann]

Blame the govt for imposing crowding standards - the consequence was lots of seats (empty most of the day), and no space for bikes

[dave holladay]

Richard actually hits the point. The DfT specifies franchises down to the number of trains they will authorise purchase and leasing of trains and a bean counter outlook that requires fixed seating to cram in the maximum passenger load for just a couple of hours per day.

One interesting spat at the moment has had an 11-coach train delivered and commissioned and 3 more to follow, already in the UK, along with coaches to extend a fleet of 9 coach trains - the order took almost 2 years to get authorised and now one of the 11 coach trains will enter service with Virgin to release diesel trains for extending the trains serving Holyhead (and providing 8 bike spaces on this service) BUT DfT is insisting that 2 coaches are removed from the 11-coach train before it enters service. I wonder if they might like to discuss that with the 50 passengers who were standing for over 4 hours on the London to Glasgow train earlier this year (I went through and counted them - and suggest that anyone travelling with bikes does likewise to build up a picture of patronage)

We've some interesting feedback from groups who do count the bikes. For example the Severn Beach line - reverse flow commuters to Avonmouth and BAe Filton North deliver 8-10 bikes on the early train (70 seat Class 153) and up to 14 on the later one (102 seat Class 142). For the latter the cyclists make up around half the passenger count. Unfortunately the inbound trains are carrying up to 180 passengers so a new train is being allocated to the line - with 140-150 seats but arranged in such a way that it cannot be as flexible as the old ones doh!

There are 10 bike 'counts' on Newcastle-Durham 6-8 bikes on Sheffield-Leeds, and other commuter use that highlights a demand to have an integrated cycle-rail deal delivered for these routes which work well as an alternative to driving on the M1/A1(M)

[dave holladay]

Geriatrix is correct about the complexity of the problem. First the DfT sets the terms of the franchise - how many trains they want to run and how much they will pay to do this for most rail services (carrying passengers does not generally make money - the old railway sold a package of travel and facilities like hotels for passengers and local road distribution, plus the rents and other income from the enhanced value of land connected to a rail service). Sadly the silo mentality has given us a railway in the UK which tends to have a blinkered focus on selling the incomplete product of a station to station journey. In other EU countries a total deal is sold by the rail and bus operators including bike hire, car hire etc to get you to the station or bus stop.

Add to this the ridiculous position of an employment regime that demands more than twice the capacity of the road and rail networks for just a couple of hours per day, and has it lying idle or worse running around nearly empty for over 90% of the time. No other production process would be sustained if it demanded huge investment and used it so little. As an example one 12-coach 744-seat train runs in to London Bridge with over 1500 passengers on board, according to the train operator. It cannot be extended any further (platform lengths and signalling costs for just a few trains per week day) and for most of the rest of the time a 4-coach train is ample to carry the passengers on this route. We do have a bean counter mentality issue though as the DfT system appears to force the use of fixed seating and their 'experts' use a flawed thinking, seen when Manchester's cyclists campaigned for a rethink on cycle carriage - estimating a huge amount of seating loss per bike and then doubling that for 2 bikes (when every cyclist knows that 2 bikes will fit in to the same space as 1 if parked properly). In one move SPT in Scotland removed tip up seats for the theoretical gain of 1 seat per train (in real life 10 people used to sit on the 8-person seating so we actually LOST a seat), and I have a photo of a train barely 20% filled but with doorways and aisles blocked by bikes (2) a pram and a second wheelchair user in just one of the carriages, because there was no flexible space for them on an almost empty train.

We do see 8-10 bikes on Newcastle-Durham 6-8 on Sheffield-Leeds and I was on a Bristol-Cheltenham that managed 8, but turned away another 4, not that they would not fit - just on principle, with the train having just 50% of the seats filled, and most of the bikes going just 2 stops - the hiatus delayed the train by 10 minutes (around £1500 in fines for this train and matching amounts for every other train it delayed en route). One incident saw a train blocking the main line for almost 30 minutes until the passengers sorted out the bike stowage themselves and the guard had to give up on waiting for assistance after taking issue about the bikes not being stowed properly through the bike space being filled with luggage - a detail which would have been simply resolved en route without delaying the train at all.

Do do counts - on the Severn Beach line the early reverse-flow commute from Bristol to Avonmouth and Severn Beach (for BAe and Filton North) there are up to 8 bikes on the early (70-seat) train and up to 14 bikes on the later (102-seat) train mostly travelling between Stapleton Road and Avonmouth, and providing alt least half the passengers going in this direction. Unfortunately on reaching Bristol the main commuting flow offloads up to 180 people from the 102-seat train, and a 140-150 seat train is due to arrive for the services. This highlights the problem of lack of flexibility as the new train does not seem to be able to fit in the same number of bikes as the smaller one. Perhaps the solution for such commuter lines is to buy in some cheap secondhand Metro trains which are bike friendly through their open seating layout as they plan to do for Harrogate (being Yorkshire and canny wi' their brass)
http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/ ... ation.html

[Richard Mann]

The govt imposes crowding standards because people complain about overcrowding. The solution is not "shouting louder" than the people who want a seat.

The industry came up with ways of measuring overcrowding, so they could try to balance overcrowding between services, and justify additional rolling stock. The measures were set at 100% provision of seats 20 mins from the peak loading point (nobody should have to stand for more than 20 mins), and no more than 135% load at the peak loading point. The latter measure is daft - it's a brutal compromise that doesn't satisfy anybody. It just means that the designers cram as many seats in as they can, to maximise the number of standees they are allowed. This makes it impossible to have German-style open carriages, with just tip-up seats round the edge, which in turn makes things difficult for anybody with mobility difficulties, buggies, luggage (or bikes).

So the measures have to change: I'd suggest they should keep the 100% provision of seats 20 minutes from the peak loading point (this isn't usually a problem), but switch to a different measure for short journeys - say 100% provision of seats+perches+straps at the peak loading point. This is what the short-distance peak traveller wants - somewhere to lean / hang from, not a share of a seat.

Edit - there is a new standard for "metro" rolling stock - 100% provision of a seat or 0.45m2 of standing space. The problem with this measure is that "standing space" is obviously inferior, so they still err on the side of providing seats. They should replace "standing space" with perch/strap, so it actually becomes an adequate substitute for a seat.

Richard

[Hypocacculus]

I've just come back from a tour, and to get home from Berlin, we brought our bikes back via Amsterdam on the sleeper, and then on to Hoek Van Holland for the journey home. So yes, you can take a bike on a Dutch train, but not during rush hour. There were no special facilities for bikes on the standard train, and only space for eight or so bikes on the sleeper. In that way, they are no better than the UK. The same went for Denmark, another famously cycle friendly place.

In Amsterdam, the level of bicycle ownership is phenomenal. The bike racks outside Amsterdam Central Station contain literally thousands of bicycles in multistorey bike parks. You have to see it to believe it. Every other station we went through had hundreds of bike rack spaces. There is no way trains would work if everyone tried to take all those bicycles aboard, no matter how desirable that might be. It is so obvious, it is a non-issue. Dutch commuter bikes live outside; they are not the owner's pride and joy but just a tool to get to work. A roadster style beater is parked at the station and they were all left there over the weekend. This is the only way it can work, and work it does.

I love being able to take a bike on the train and I too used to fulminate at the lack of facilities, but I have to concede that it just doesn't work as soon as too many people try to do it - so just enjoy it while you can.

[CJ]

So the measures have to change:

And not just the measures used by the railways and their regulator! Cyclists get it wrong too!

Do you recall that survey by the European Cycling Federation that found Britain to have the best provision for bikes on trains in Europe?

Britain came out so well because there are very few trains here on which no bikes at all can be carried, and quite a lot where it's free. The fact that you can take only one or two bikes on most of those trains, so that bike-rail in Britain remains an option only for lone cyclists or at most a couple, was apparently of no account in this survey. Its failure to give sufficient weighting to the sheer number of bike spaces available in other countries, their simpler booking procedures and generally more cycle-friendly attitudes, have allowed our TOCs to congratulate themselves for being so nice to those irritating cyclists and forget about doing anything to improve the sad vestige of a service they actually provide.

Speaking as someone who likes to go cycling with family and friends, I'd rather be in Germany. It would be pain not to be able to travel at all on the fastest trains, but all parts of Germany can still be accessed in a reasonable time on trains that carry far more bikes than any medium-distance British train. And whilst I would always have to pay a few euros for the bike, with a ticket comes entitlement and enough places for bikes that I would be reasonably certain of getting a place, usually be able to book it on the spot for complete certainty, and even consider group travel.

[CJ]

I've just come back from a tour, and to get home from Berlin, we brought our bikes back via Amsterdam on the sleeper, and then on to Hoek Van Holland for the journey home. So yes, you can take a bike on a Dutch train, but not during rush hour. There were no special facilities for bikes on the standard train, and only space for eight or so bikes on the sleeper. In that way, they are no better than the UK. The same went for Denmark, another famously cycle friendly place.

In Amsterdam, the level of bicycle ownership is phenomenal. The bike racks outside Amsterdam Central Station contain literally thousands of bicycles in multistorey bike parks. You have to see it to believe it. Every other station we went through had hundreds of bike rack spaces. There is no way trains would work if everyone tried to take all those bicycles aboard, no matter how desirable that might be. It is so obvious, it is a non-issue. Dutch commuter bikes live outside; they are not the owner's pride and joy but just a tool to get to work. A roadster style beater is parked at the station and they were all left there over the weekend. This is the only way it can work, and work it does.

I love being able to take a bike on the train and I too used to fulminate at the lack of facilities, but I have to concede that it just doesn't work as soon as too many people try to do it - so just enjoy it while you can.

In September I'm organising a CTC Tour in Bavaria including train travel London to Munich. And 12 people (with bikes) have gone for the train option. Only 8 bike spaces on the night train obliged me to stagger travel dates and include an optional Munich sightseeing day either end of the trip, and booking this was a real headache (Question to Eurostar's groups dept: when is a group of 12 not a group then? Eurostar's answer: when it splits into fewer than 10 on each train!) but it's now all ready to roll! When the day comes that I can book a group of 8 cyclists onto the night train to Inverness for a tour of the Highlands, I'll agree with Hypocacculus that Germany is no better than UK.

But I will straightaway agree with him that everyday bike-rail commuting (any other way than the Dutch do it, compact folder or bike left at station) is not practicable as soon as cycling becomes a normal way of getting about.

For that reason I believe that the present preoccupation of so many British campaigners (CTCs Dave excepted) on getting it for free and on peak hour trains is misplaced. If we are serious about making cycling a viable option for the masses: charging for bikes on trains and banning them at peak are necessary parts of that picture.

In any workable vision of a cycle friendly future: the role of the train in relation to the bike is to assist occasional long-distance trips, trips in which cycling is such an important part that the traveller needs their own familiar cycle. In other words: it's for cycling holidays, going to races and for weekend leisure trips. That's how it is in Holland, Germany and Denmark, where cycle-touring is as much of a mass-movement as cycle-commuting. So I think bike rail campaigners really ought to concentrate a bit more on what a cycle-tourist looks for in a rail service and accept that non-folding bikes cannot expect to go on a busy commuter train unless that is part of longer booked and paid-for trip.

[Hypocacculus]

When the day comes that I can book a group of 8 cyclists onto the night train to Inverness for a tour of the Highlands, I'll agree with Hypocacculus that Germany is no better than UK.

Slipping solidly into Devils' advocate mode, I've just had a shufty at the Man in Seat 61 website. Apparently, you can book 6 bikes on sleepers to Edinburgh and Glasgow, although only 3 to Inverness.

I don't think the fact that a German sleeper will take 8 bikes and a British one only 6 is a massive level of inferiority. It is still totally inadequate for the number of cycle tourists around. I agree 3 might be a bit of a problem for, say, a family of four travelling. In contrast, many of the German and French high speed trains won't take bikes at all, whereas at least our Intercity trains will accept two or three. I really don't buy the idea that Continental train + bike travel is superior to the British system - my personal experience is it's just as variable when it comes to facilities and frustration. All this is fresh in my mind because the trip I returned from yesterday (Copenhagen to Berlin) included 10 seperate train rides and four ferries, in the UK, Denmark, Germany and Holland, to get to the start and home from the finish. I certainly had an interesting time making all the bookings. In Denmark, I ran up against the dreaded rail replacement bus which, of course, didn't take bikes. Sound familiar? The only significant difference is that Continental trains are a bit more spacious, largely due to their wider gauge tracks and that isn't going to change any time soon. But our bikes were still getting filthy looks from standing passengers on a packed train to Copenhagen where they were leaning against folding seats, just like they do on some UK rail services. On the other hand, we had excellent facilities on the East Anglia train from Liverpool Street to Manningtree. Before I did this trip, I would have been sadly shaking my head, agreeing with the dreadful state of British rail services compared to our Continental contemporaries. Now I'm not so sure.

How many is enough? Obviously for your trip, you wanted 12. Should all sleepers have 12? What if a group of 14 are travelling? Would increasing the daily capacity for cyclists on sleepers to inverness from 3 to 8 actually change anything on a national scale? What we all became as bike mad as the Dutch?

I don't know what the answer to this is. But I'm pretty sure any cure requires expensive changes to rolling stock and large charges for bikes because they take up so much room. The demand will have to increase to a level to interest the rail operators before we see that happen. I'd be curious to know how many would pay the same fare for their bike as themselves? In the meantime, like it or not, I have come to see that being able to take my bike on a train in the current economic climate is a welcome concession granted by the train operators, not a right.

Oh - and one last edit - if you are willing to make the effort to pack your bike up in a box, you can take it on pretty much any train you like, thus circumventing these restrictions. Unreasonable? maybe, but at least the option is there. And you'd probably have got all 12 on that sleeper!

[Cyclenut]

When the day comes that I can book a group of 8 cyclists onto the night train to Inverness for a tour of the Highlands, I'll agree with Hypocacculus that Germany is no better than UK.

Slipping solidly into Devils' advocate mode, I've just had a shufty at the Man in Seat 61 website. Apparently, you can book 6 bikes on sleepers to Edinburgh and Glasgow, although only 3 to Inverness

But I said Inverness. Deliberately. Remembering our family End-to-End in 2000 and the trouble we had in getting any sense out of Scotrail, with all our accommodation booked months ago and still no certainty of getting home with only a fortnight to go! Land-End to John O'Groats is kinda popular with cyclists, but something is more important than us on that service and it's boxes of scallops would you believe it! It's hard enough to get to Inverness from JoG. We simply would not have had time to get all the way to Glasgow or Edinburgh.

.Oh - and one last edit - if you are willing to make the effort to pack your bike up in a box, you can take it on pretty much any train you like, thus circumventing these restrictions. Unreasonable? maybe, but at least the option is there. And you'd probably have got all 12 on that sleeper!

But if I have to pack my bike up like that, I might as well fly. If the trains want me to spend the extra money and the time with them, I do expect just a little something in return.

[Tonyf33]

The Hull train from King's Cross takes loads of bikes, must be at least 6 upright racks last time I went, staff very helpful at both ends. Using it again very soon & at £10.50 from Stevenage one way it's an absolute bargain

[Richard Mann]

Re long-distance high-speed trains - all the pressure is to provide more seats (primarily for Friday evening and Sunday afternoon, sometimes also peak services generally). Older trains have guards vans etc, newer ones have (smaller) crumple zones, but eventually bikes will be crowded out of these as well (as with the Voyager conversion - if it weren't for the lack of windows in the old shop, there'd be seats there as well).

The difficulty is making space that's nice enough to use as seating for long-distance passengers, but robust enough to use for bikes.

The answer may lie in trying to get all the space-hungry issues together, and working with seat-designers on improvements to flexibility. I could imagine, for instance, a set of longitudinal seats that have ample legroom (for mobility-impaired, or with-buggy use), or could fold-up (with maybe a luggage rack folding down) to make a bike+luggage space. Maybe longitudinal fold-ups on one side of the aisle, and conventional-but-with-extra-legroom on the other side of the aisle.

Re sleepers - the answer probably lies in persuading them to take a mattress out of a one-berth compartment (it can go into another one-berth compartment to make it into a two-berth), and putting in sufficient protection that bikes can be piled in. I reckon you could probably get three or four bikes on each bunk...

[Vorpal]

If you want an example of British inferiority in bicycle accomodation on trains, just try to take a trike, tandem or bike + trailer on the train. While these are allowed (for an additional fee in some cases) on most continental train services where bikes are permitted, they are not allowed on the majority British train services. And the limitations are normally applied even when the vehicle in question is a mobility aid.

When I had only one child who still fit in a child seat, I took the train two to three times per month. With two children (childback tandem and/or trailer), I have taken the train twice in the last year. One of those times, I was on my own. The other, we parked the bike at the station, and took only the trailer (converted to buggy).

[Vorpal]

Re sleepers - the answer probably lies in persuading them to take a mattress out of a one-berth compartment (it can go into another one-berth compartment to make it into a two-berth), and putting in sufficient protection that bikes can be piled in. I reckon you could probably get three or four bikes on each bunk...

They won't do that if it doesn't make any money. It either requires 1) cyclists paying to take their bikes or 2) the government providing some kind of subsidy or bike-friendly incentive.

[Richard Mann]

Re sleepers - the answer probably lies in persuading them to take a mattress out of a one-berth compartment (it can go into another one-berth compartment to make it into a two-berth), and putting in sufficient protection that bikes can be piled in. I reckon you could probably get three or four bikes on each bunk...

They won't do that if it doesn't make any money. It either requires 1) cyclists paying to take their bikes or 2) the government providing some kind of subsidy or bike-friendly incentive.

The govt in question being Scottish.