Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriageways

Richard D
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Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriageways

Postby Richard D » 7 Oct 2012, 8:36pm

http://road.cc/content/news/68517-judge ... some-roads

IIRC, Judge Tonking presided over the trial of the motorist who killed Patrick Kenny on the A38 near Burton On Trent.

Whilst I'd not choose to ride along the A38 (it's not exactly a pleasant experience using the cycle path which is provided next to the carriageway for a portion of the journey from Lichfield to Burton; the main carriageway is going to be much, much worse; there are always other, more bike-friendly routes to take on *that* journey), I'm worried that this is the thin end of the wedge. What about those journeys were we pretty much have to use at least a short portion of dual carriageway? It's often not practical simply to cross it or avoid it altogether. I seem to recall District Judge Bruce Morgan trying to fine a cyclist for riding on the road instead of using a cycle path - another bit of thinking that can only have been arrived at by a man who'd not been on a bicycle for 40+ years.

I'm going to declare that I know Judge Tonking reasonably well, having been in his courtroom many times. He's a fan of the motor car, although I hadn't realised that he was quite so out of touch with the needs of cyclists. If we are vulnerable road users, the answer must surely be to address the vulnerabilities, not ban us from the roads?

Mark1978
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby Mark1978 » 7 Oct 2012, 8:44pm

The problem is that in order to placate the anti-motorway crowd and save cash we have many high speed duals which are basically motorways with green signs and no hard shoulder.

It's right that cycles are banned from motorways and by extension these roads too. The problem is how to define it as the same road can change standard many times along its length.

One thing is that whenever an A road is upgraded to motorway an alternative route must be provided. Sometimes called a local access road. If certain classes of traffic were to be banned from a route then by law an alternative needs to be provided.

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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby Shootist » 7 Oct 2012, 8:48pm

Whatever the 'needs' of cyclists, it is a fact (IMO) that anyone riding a bike down a dual carriageway should first ensure they have made their will, and carry a handwritten note to the effect that they had not tried to commit suicide. It will help at the inquest. Especially on the A38.

As for the judge, no judge is ever going to order a highways authority to build cycle paths alongside the entire length of a dual carriageway. If there are additional needs for cyclists with a desperate need to inhale carbon monoxide and diesel fumes then let them agitate the right people. Other than that, at crucial intersections where cyclists may be tempted, perhaps the emergency phones could have a key to make a direct connection to The Samaritans. It'd save time.
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Benethi
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby Benethi » 7 Oct 2012, 8:58pm

Judge Tonkin suggests that it would improve safety “to remove all cyclists from any dual-carriageway which is not subject to a speed limit of 30, or possibly 40, mph.”

He goes on to say, “This would not prevent cyclists from using dual-carriageways in urban areas but would take them away from some of our more dangerous trunk roads where traffic is both heavy and fast moving.

“Any cyclist, particularly a lone cyclist who is not wearing high-visibility clothing, is at huge risk on such roads from vehicles approaching from behind at a (legal) closing speed of up to 60 mph. At such a closing speed a relatively small and very vulnerable “object” is coming into view at the rate of 60ft per second and in a moment’s inattention irreparable damage is done.”


I suggest it would improve safety to remove all motorists from any dual carriageway which is not subject to a speed limit of 30, or possibly 40, mph.

This would not prevent motorists from using dual carriageways in urban areas but would take them away from the places where they cause the most risk.

Any motorist, particularly those in groups who are not paying full attention to the road, is creating a huge risk on such roads to vehicles they are approaching from behind.
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby Geriatrix » 7 Oct 2012, 10:05pm

Richard D wrote:What about those journeys were we pretty much have to use at least a short portion of dual carriageway? It's often not practical simply to cross it or avoid it altogether.

Indeed. If you can't get from A to B without detouring via China the road doesn't work as a system. Motorists would not accept this, I don't see why cyclists should.
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Audax67
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby Audax67 » 7 Oct 2012, 10:13pm

Riding on 2x2 dual carriageways is forbidden here. In any case it's not a pleasant experience.
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snibgo
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby snibgo » 8 Oct 2012, 1:12am

As always, if they provide something better, doubtless we will use it.

Anyone who calls for banning cyclists without simultaneously calling for beter alternatives is clearly an anti-cycling victim-blamer.

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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby Vorpal » 8 Oct 2012, 5:39am

But there are plenty of dual carriageways where we *need* to be able to ride (as conditions currently exist). And there are also plenty where we should be able to. There are many, many sections of dual carriageway that are main routes without good alternatives.

Even if it weren't the thin end of the wedge. :evil:
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Audax67
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby Audax67 » 8 Oct 2012, 7:30am

snibgo wrote:Anyone who calls for banning cyclists without simultaneously calling for better alternatives is clearly an anti-cycling victim-blamer.


Oh, I doubt it. They probably don't think of cyclists at all, other than as obstructions.

"Coming on here, taking up our thoroughfare. Send 'em back where they came from, say I."

Sound familiar?
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Mark1978
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby Mark1978 » 8 Oct 2012, 8:44am

Geriatrix wrote:
Richard D wrote:What about those journeys were we pretty much have to use at least a short portion of dual carriageway? It's often not practical simply to cross it or avoid it altogether.

Indeed. If you can't get from A to B without detouring via China the road doesn't work as a system. Motorists would not accept this, I don't see why cyclists should.


That's the issue isn't it, and it isn't just dual carraigeways but big roundabouts, high capacity single carriageway etc. The entire road system is designed around getting traffic on to high speed, high capacity roads, which are just the ones most cyclists wish to avoid.

reohn2
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby reohn2 » 8 Oct 2012, 8:55am

Audax67 wrote:Riding on 2x2 dual carriageways is forbidden here. In any case it's not a pleasant experience.

It's the same in the Netherlands.But then the Netherlands cares enough for it's citizens to provide decent alternatives.
Last edited by reohn2 on 8 Oct 2012, 9:03am, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby reohn2 » 8 Oct 2012, 9:01am

snibgo wrote:As always, if they provide something better, doubtless we will use it.

Anyone who calls for banning cyclists without simultaneously calling for beter alternatives is clearly an anti-cycling victim-blamer.

Personally I keep off them but if there's no alternative I have to use them if only for a short stretch,the answer is decent facilities.
The problem is,in the UK decent isn't usually a word found in the same sentence as cycling facilities!

BTW since when have judges been in touch with needs of mere mortals :?
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Mick F
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby Mick F » 8 Oct 2012, 9:11am

Audax67 wrote:Riding on 2x2 dual carriageways is forbidden here ..........
reohn2 wrote:It's the same in the Netherlands ...........
How do you overtake?
Maybe you're overtaking and your speed differentials are small?

For what distance is it illegal?
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby reohn2 » 8 Oct 2012, 9:18am

Mick F wrote:
Audax67 wrote:Riding on 2x2 dual carriageways is forbidden here ..........
reohn2 wrote:It's the same in the Netherlands ...........
How do you overtake?
Maybe you're overtaking and your speed differentials are small?

For what distance is it illegal?


Sorry Mick you'll have to clarify,I'm confused :?

Audax67 and myself are merely saying that cycling on dual carriageways is illegel in France and the Netherlands.I don't know about France but in the Netherlands there is always a good alternative cycling facility.
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iviehoff
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Re: Judge calls for cyclists to be banned from dual carriage

Postby iviehoff » 8 Oct 2012, 9:50am

Audax67 wrote:Riding on 2x2 dual carriageways is forbidden here. In any case it's not a pleasant experience.

What does this mean? That I can't cycle down the street in Quelqueville, because it has trees planted down the middle? I think not. Trees planted down the middle and space for two lanes of cars either side? That would be the description of many a town centre street in a fairly normal French town with plenty of people riding their bicycles. What about the Champs Elysees? Are you only allowed to cycle down that if you qualify for the TdeF?

I think we need to understand what is a "dual carriageway" before we go around saying it is banned to cycle on one. I think it may turn out that people have different ideas of what one is.