Trains and space for cycles

montmorency
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Post by montmorency »

I tend to agree with CJ that we should be prepared to pay for our cycle carriage. Not difficult to foresee cycle carriage being dropped altogether one day ("...after all, you don't pay for it...").

But at a fair price, and not necessarily approaching full economic cost; if the powers that be are serious about encouraging alternatives to the car, then at least a modest subsidy of cycling is surely acceptable.

However, as a quid(£?) quo pro for paying for this carriage, it should then be seen as a right and not a privilege, and there should be no unreasonable restrictions.

Also, if we can have through-ticketing for passengers, we should have through ticketing for bicycles. (Those companies who do charge do not currently regard it as a ticket, but as a reservation, I believe). I can remember at one time that bikes were being charged at the rate of £3, and this was payable at every change of train, so could really mount up.

The government (and previous ones) is happy enough to learn lessons from the USA. Why can't it learn some lessons from continental Europe? After all, we have enough freeloading MEPs and Commissioners who should know something about the continent by now.....ah, but of course, they don't pay their own fares, and probably very rarely travel by bike, except for PR purposes.



Regards,
M.
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horizon
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Post by horizon »

montmorency: as I said above, we already pay for cycle carriage, not everyone uses it. The price of the ticket is arbitrary and set by government policy not by the rail companies. If the railway companies were free to charge as they liked for any service they liked, then many lines would have no trains at all while the company collected the subsidy. This is in effect what is happening with cycle provision - the company is collecting a fare without providing the service. Our willingness to pay twice doesn't right that wrong.
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horizon
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Post by horizon »

montmorency: having disagreed with you above, may I compliment you on your observation that the small branch lines fed the profitable main lines - you rarely read about this. :)
PRL
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Post by PRL »

Traveling from Swansea to London via Crewe on Friday - FRW trains had been suspended - showed the flexibility of Arriva and Virgin guards in accepting unbooked bikes ( much appreciated ) but also that 4 bikes could fit into the space marked as holding a maximum of 2 without encroaching on the gangway.
montmorency
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Post by montmorency »

horizon wrote:montmorency: having disagreed with you above, may I compliment you on your observation that the small branch lines fed the profitable main lines - you rarely read about this. :)



Thanks Horizon. Well, not my own original "research" of course; I just read it in an article somewhere.

As to your other point, well, you may well be right. I just sort of think I would feel better if we were seen to be paying our way, or at least making a contribution that non-cyclists could easily recognise. (We are all contributing to the vast subsidies in our taxes of course, even children with the VAT on sweeties, as I sometimes like to point out :-) ).

On the question of the government setting the fares, I wonder if this is as true as it once was though. I was really only going on the recent revelation, re: Arriva, that the proportion of "unregulated" fares was going to go up, which I presume means those not controlled by the government.



Regards,
M.
glueman
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Post by glueman »

If we charge for bikes, what other luggage should attact a tariff? Artists portfolios? Oxford Street shopping, heading home? Traveller's rucksacks? Since BR days there has been no consistency in the operator's approach to bicycles but the backstory has been they're a damned nuisance.
rower40
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Post by rower40 »

glueman wrote:If we charge for bikes, what other luggage should attact a tariff?


Well, draconian and obscure they may be, but the rules are written down somewhere.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/ga ... /NRCOC.pdf

Appendix B has all the actual dimensions details and charges.

But the guard of a train has the final discretion. I've seen surfboards on the Paddington to Newquay summer weekend specials, even though this document says that they're not allowed.

(Don't tell anyone about the camping stove in your panniers!)
"Little Green Men Are Everywhere... ...But Mostly On Traffic Lights."
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Lusting my Pinnarello
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Post by Lusting my Pinnarello »

Im glad u mentioned "Not mentioning" about gas stoves in my panniers.... I have booked my passage on virgin trains to edinburgh, and then scotrail from there to JOG for the 31 august.... it only cost me £22 squid.... and the bike reservation was free.....

Its cost a few squid more on the train from st erth to london, and then to sheffield, but again the bike reservation is free. (not with vergin this time)

I wouldnt mind (if I had to) pay a few squid for the bike. But like the previous comments above, will they then start charging for suitcases etc. where would it end.

On the note of travilling to London paddington, and then from london st pancras.... anything I should be aware of???
rower40
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Post by rower40 »

lusting my pinnarello wrote:On the note of travilling to London paddington, and then from london st pancras.... anything I should be aware of???

As mentioned in other threads:
Label Your Bike. Date; Name; start-station, end-station. Have a new label for each train you're planning to go on.

And some new advice that I've not shared before:
After loading the bike onto the van area in an HST Coach A, ask the guard if you can "walk through". Then take a seat as near the guard's door as you can. Just as he finishes the announcement for the station where you're alighting, knock on the door to ask if you can get your bike. This saves lots of running along platforms to get to the van area's outside door.
(This only works if he makes the announcement from his refuge in coach A; not if he's at the Buffet, chatting up the catering staff.)

First Class cyclists are a problem. The bike storage is at the opposite end of the train from the posh seats. Those of us with First Class travel facilities find ourselves slumming it to stay near to the bike.

Give lots of time to get from Paddington to St Pancras. There's lots of walking involved in getting from Euston Road to the St Pancras platform. Use the lift at St Pancras if you can. And the signs have just gone up at St Pancras main doorway, suggesting that Midland MainLine staff will get British Transport Police involved if people bike through the concourse. Don't call their bluff.

Wave to me (and AlbionLass, who I've not yet met) when you come through Derby.
"Little Green Men Are Everywhere... ...But Mostly On Traffic Lights."
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horizon
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Post by horizon »

Remember: the bikes are always at the Penzance end of the train (coach A) and the train is longer than you think. Coach A is the quiet coach (bliss) but you can just as easily go into coach B unless you wish to take advantage of rower's suggestion and go through the guard's compartment. The buffet car is a long way from coach A and there is nothing to stop an unscrupulous traveller from swapping their bike for yours at an intermediate stop. The night sleeper is to be recommended. The section of the route between Newton Abbot and Exeter is spectacular and the conversation is of a very high standard from there as far as Reading.
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Lusting my Pinnarello
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Post by Lusting my Pinnarello »

thanx chaps... ive just got my return tickets today... Coach C from St erth, and coach E from London... im presuming this is next to where the bike will go..... fantastic advise, I WILL USE IT!!! :D
atoz
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Post by atoz »

Doesn't look like some of the new rolling stock is all that brilliant for cycle space. I noticed 2 people this week (at different times) having to hold their bikes in the door area of a class 185 Desiro TransPennine, when there is supposed to be cycle space on these trains, and in fact there is a notice on the door to that effect - where these people were standing. I couldn't see, but my guess is that the cycle space was being used for something else- probably luggage? Given that these trains are heavier and therefore more expensive to run in fuel costs than the 158's they have replaced, I suspect that the cycle space may have a rather short life.

Also I noticed in the CTC mag that the law changes mentioned was described in phrases as "should have space for cycles" and that it was long distance trains. I don't like that word "should". I prefer the word "must". "Should" means the train companies will wriggle out on the grounds of "when reasonably practical"- a phrase anyone familiar with disabled access will be familiar with.

If this happens, so we get squeezed out, how will the CTC respond?
ThePinkOne
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Post by ThePinkOne »

I think a lot of this is train design driven by the corrent contractual system of the railway. These days, there is a drive to force more passengers onto a limited stretch of line as there are no spare "paths" for running extra trains, plus train length is often be limited by platform length esp on local services therefore the train designers increase density of passengers in train hence no bike spaces. This also means TOCs can increase profits without increasing vehicle numbers (ie capital and revenue costs of the operation).

The old cycle-friendly DMUs with Guard's van and HSTs were designed and conceived in a different era when trains were seen as TRANSPORT rather than a revenue-earning business.

Ultimately the solution is multi-faceted.

1. More train lines = more paths so more inherent capacity. More block sections on older lines = more train paths (but costs money in signalling, maintenance and staffing). Ditto doubling singled lines and quadrupling double lines and increasing capacity of MAS signalled lines.
2. Longer platforms as standard- if you look at platforms built pre-1960 generally they were longer. Then longer trains can be run.
3. In conjunction with this a compulsory spec that includes cycle space provision. The spec of trains is already highly regulated (was ROTs now ROGs/Safety Verification if anyone wants to go look) so providers are used to working to tight specs- point is you need the specs there. Have a phase-in period- similar to the way Mark 1 stock was phased out- parallel to capacity increases.

However, chances of this being able to happen in current structure of rail industy are about as high as a little pink pig picking me up and taking me away on hols.

Until then, about all CTC can do IMO is try to get the best out of a bad situation ... and if you want to easily take a cycle or in my case a large recumbent trike on a train your best bet is an old one (HST/Loco hauled/ Heritage lines).

P.
andwags
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Post by andwags »

I believe that as cycling gains popularity as it is doing and more and more people will want/need to use trains as part of their cycle commute, train companies will eventually be forced by consumer demand to make more room available to cycles. This will come at a price and in most cases you won't get much for your money.

Two things about Switzerland: their trains have many spaces for bikes - 6 per car - and they charge a 1/2 fare for your bicycle unless you are a student, an old age pensioner or have some disability. With that kind of value for money, it wouldn't be wrong to charge for cycles. I don't see that happening here.

We would get charged and still be denied entry if the train ended up too busy - I wouldn't doubt they would overbook the spots as I have seen in the past with reservations.
Ru88ell
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Post by Ru88ell »

On our return trip to Wolverhampton from Aberdovey we were surprised at the lack of facilities on an Arriva Trains Wales train. We had reservations, but there were a few who turned up without. It was a bit of a broom cupboard, with no restraint. Each time the train stopped my bike rolled out of the cupboard.

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We struggled with one rigid MTB and a 24" childs bike. (Might have been easier had I removed Max's small panniers.)

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I had to remove the wheel from the BOB and put it in the standard luggage area.
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