30kmh – making streets liveable

User avatar
patricktaylor
Posts: 2299
Joined: 11 Jun 2008, 11:20am
Location: Winter Hill
Contact:

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby patricktaylor » 31 May 2013, 1:35pm

If anything is damaging cycling in this country it's the notion that everything will be ok only when we have "gone Dutch." The UK will never go that way; we can't, and we don't want to. The 'we' is not cyclists but the wider population to whom the idea of cycling as a means of personal transport never even occurs. The way to go Dutch is to go to the Netherlands (I suspect the majority of go-Dutch campaigners have never been there). Meanwhile there is an abundance of leisure cycling opportunity to be enjoyed right here in Britain.

FWIW (I am probably in a small minority) my personal thoughts are here.

Mark1978
Posts: 4912
Joined: 17 Jul 2012, 8:47am
Location: Chester-le-Street, County Durham

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby Mark1978 » 31 May 2013, 1:42pm

You may think that 'going Dutch' is impossible, although I don't see why? But your idea of getting rid of cars, and mass driver 'education' seems even more pie in the sky.
If you want to 'get people cycling' is isn't and will never be on the roads.

kwackers
Posts: 12558
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby kwackers » 31 May 2013, 2:16pm

Mark1978 wrote:If you want to 'get people cycling' is isn't and will never be on the roads.

In which case we're stuffed.

There's no way I'd claim a decent infrastructure can't be better than roads but I'm pretty certain it won't happen.
Around my area they built a new estate that was meant to be cycling friendly. All it really did was provide extra parking for cars.

Look at pavements, in theory they're a separate facility for pedestrians that segregates them from traffic and is much better than walking in the road. The reality is even they struggle to work, often they simply provide a facility that's so poorly maintained that often I'm forced to use the road anyway - and that's before you you take into account the fact they've been commandeered by motorists for parking...

And that imo is where the whole thing falls apart. The first job is to educate drivers because until driver accept that they're not the be all and end all then there'll always be issues.

Mark1978
Posts: 4912
Joined: 17 Jul 2012, 8:47am
Location: Chester-le-Street, County Durham

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby Mark1978 » 31 May 2013, 2:18pm

kwackers wrote: The first job is to educate drivers because until driver accept that they're not the be all and end all then there'll always be issues.


In which case you're stuffed.

kwackers
Posts: 12558
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby kwackers » 31 May 2013, 2:34pm

Mark1978 wrote:
kwackers wrote: The first job is to educate drivers because until driver accept that they're not the be all and end all then there'll always be issues.


In which case you're stuffed.

I disagree.

Which is more likely.
Building cycling infrastructure in sufficient quantity and time to make a difference (esp given the current economy.)
OR.
Educating drivers.

IME, educating drivers is already happening. Changing policy to introduce presumed liability would for example have huge effects and at little cost.
I also think the roads are better to cycle on than they were even a few years ago.

In short I believe things are changing - and this despite no obvious increase in facilities.

I'm sure we'll get *some* facilities but any real change is decades away.

Mark1978
Posts: 4912
Joined: 17 Jul 2012, 8:47am
Location: Chester-le-Street, County Durham

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby Mark1978 » 31 May 2013, 2:37pm

I always roll my eyes when I see "edcuation" and "training" for whom exactly? Unless you do it for everybody, which isn't going to happen, then it's entirely useless.

kwackers
Posts: 12558
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby kwackers » 31 May 2013, 2:41pm

Mark1978 wrote:I always roll my eyes when I see "edcuation" and "training" for whom exactly? Unless you do it for everybody, which isn't going to happen, then it's entirely useless.

That's because you're presuming a somewhat formal interpretation of "education".

Education can also be slow and pervasive. For example if enough people shout "you don't pay road tax" eventually unless you live in a cave it permeates into the social consciousness.

P.S. I didn't mention "training" :wink:

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby meic » 31 May 2013, 2:53pm

It depends what you mean by educating drivers.

The drivers all know that they shouldnt do things like speeding, that part of the education doesnt produce adequate results, the part of the education that is needed is that if they do they will get caught and punished, that sort of education needs a large investment in traffic policing or at least an increase in enforcement cameras.
Yma o Hyd

User avatar
Phil_Lee
Posts: 726
Joined: 13 Jul 2008, 3:41am
Location: Cambs

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby Phil_Lee » 3 Jun 2013, 12:52am

I'm disgusted that CTC isn't among the organisations listed as supporting this initiative though.
Why on earth not?
Cycling and walking organisations from all over the EU are supporting it, but the CTC is leaving it to 20s Plenty to argue the UK perspective.
We should at least all be signing the petition at This Location individually.

Mark1978
Posts: 4912
Joined: 17 Jul 2012, 8:47am
Location: Chester-le-Street, County Durham

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby Mark1978 » 3 Jun 2013, 9:58am

Phil_Lee wrote:I'm disgusted that CTC isn't among the organisations listed as supporting this initiative though.
Why on earth not?
Cycling and walking organisations from all over the EU are supporting it, but the CTC is leaving it to 20s Plenty to argue the UK perspective.
We should at least all be signing the petition at This Location individually.


Getting the government to take cycling seriously in any form is an uphill and almost impossible task, the very last thing we need is cycle campaigners to be presenting a dis unified voice on the subject. It's all too easy for politicians who get opposing viewpoints to then do nothing.

User avatar
patricktaylor
Posts: 2299
Joined: 11 Jun 2008, 11:20am
Location: Winter Hill
Contact:

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby patricktaylor » 3 Jun 2013, 10:27am

Mark1978 wrote:... the very last thing we need is cycle campaigners to be presenting a dis unified voice on the subject ...

Are you saying people should campaign for something they don't agree with?

Mark1978 wrote:... your idea of getting rid of cars, and mass driver 'education' seems even more pie in the sky ...

Hmmm... where did I that?

ChrisPeck
Posts: 59
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 4:13pm
Location: Guildford, Surrey

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby ChrisPeck » 3 Jun 2013, 4:42pm

Phil_Lee wrote:I'm disgusted that CTC isn't among the organisations listed as supporting this initiative though.
Why on earth not?
Cycling and walking organisations from all over the EU are supporting it, but the CTC is leaving it to 20s Plenty to argue the UK perspective.
We should at least all be signing the petition at This Location individually.


CTC has suggested that people sign the petition, but I'm afraid it was an ill-conceived idea to begin with. It needs a million signatures across Europe. This seemed virtually impossible at the time; indeed, only 25,000 people have signed, with half the allotted time gone. That's 2.5% of the way to the target...

You'll notice that not only is CTC not listed, but neither are Sustrans or Living Streets - both of which are running current 20 mph campaigns nationally.

One of the flaws of the 30km EU petition is that there is precious little that can be done at EU level to increase take-up of 20 mph. Indeed, there is little the UK government can do to force local authorities to implement 20 mph on the roads and streets they control - sure, there are things they can do, but this government claims it prefers a 'localism' approach when it comes to these sorts of decision making. The subsidiarity principle in Europe also dictates that decisions should be devolved as much as possible to the smallest unit of government. The text of the initiative claims to abide by this principle, but I'm not sure how many would agree with that.

It would be much better to focus efforts into local petitions and grassroots organising, than on international petitioning.

Mark1978
Posts: 4912
Joined: 17 Jul 2012, 8:47am
Location: Chester-le-Street, County Durham

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby Mark1978 » 4 Jun 2013, 8:58am

http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.co ... we-listen/
When people demonstrate they don't want to cycle with traffic, why don't we listen?

User avatar
patricktaylor
Posts: 2299
Joined: 11 Jun 2008, 11:20am
Location: Winter Hill
Contact:

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby patricktaylor » 4 Jun 2013, 9:12am

Mark1978 wrote:... When people demonstrate they don't want to cycle with traffic, why don't we listen?

It's just more "go Dutch" twaddle. Those cyclists aren't demonstrating - they're just cycling. Who is supposed to be listening to who?

kwackers
Posts: 12558
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby kwackers » 4 Jun 2013, 9:13am

Mark1978 wrote:http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2013/06/04/when-people-demonstrate-they-dont-want-to-cycle-with-traffic-why-dont-we-listen/
When people demonstrate they don't want to cycle with traffic, why don't we listen?


I'd guess the majority of cyclists in this country aren't out for a quiet Sunday ride, they're utility/commuters with somewhere to go. To get there means using roads and that ain't going to change any time soon.
Further I doubt for the majority of routes in this country it can change, the vast majority of roads can't be changed to accommodate the idealistic sort of routes shown in that article.

The problem with some routes like the pictures of the 'idyllic' Downs Link is one of traffic density - if I was trying to get somewhere I'd much sooner be on the road than trying to thread through all those cyclists.

In short I'd much sooner use paths like that when leisure cycling, but nearly all my cycling is utility/commuting and they don't (and can't) cut the mustard, nor is there a remote possibility that any of the routes I use could ever have those sorts of facility installed.