30kmh – making streets liveable

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orbiter
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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby orbiter » 23 May 2013, 3:42pm

Mark1978 wrote:Traffic calming measures are very very bad for cyclists, I can't really think of anything that makes my life easier.


See the Dutch speed table I quoted earlier. With a good slope up, they don't impede a bike but do slow the cars.

One of the best ways to slow traffic down is increase the subjective risk, that can often be done by narrowing the carriageway, often this is done by putting in a centre hatching, which doesn't help as it seperates the flows, better to narrow the carriageway from either side and put in good wide cycle lanes.

Agreed. Standard Dutch practice.

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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby Mark1978 » 23 May 2013, 4:13pm

orbiter wrote:See the Dutch speed table I quoted earlier. With a good slope up, they don't impede a bike but do slow the cars.


Granted, that one isn't too bad.

One of the best ways to slow traffic down is increase the subjective risk, that can often be done by narrowing the carriageway, often this is done by putting in a centre hatching, which doesn't help as it seperates the flows, better to narrow the carriageway from either side and put in good wide cycle lanes.

Agreed. Standard Dutch practice.


As shown on "aviewfromthecyclepath" there's nothing inherent about our roads or our country which means they can't be given the Dutch treatment, just a lack of will.

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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby Vorpal » 24 May 2013, 12:21pm

Mark1978 wrote:Traffic calming measures are very very bad for cyclists, I can't really think of anything that makes my life easier.

One of the best ways to slow traffic down is increase the subjective risk, that can often be done by narrowing the carriageway, often this is done by putting in a centre hatching, which doesn't help as it seperates the flows, better to narrow the carriageway from either side and put in good wide cycle lanes.

e.g. This road http://goo.gl/maps/M6sIu really wide (former Great North Road) plenty of room for wide cycle lanes but they install crappy narrow useless things and give motor traffic more space than it actually needs.


As other have explained, the speed bumps used in other countries seem to slow motor traffic effectively without impeding cycle traffic.

Personally, I hate cycle lanes of any sort. They may be of some use in the UK, where motorists habitually bring their vehicles within inches of a cyclist, but IMO, they make things worse rather than better in other places. And cycle lanes create problems for cyclists at junctions. The Dutch typically deal with it by taking the lane off the road and onto a spearate facility, or at least a segregated lane (which I still don't like, even in the Netherlands, but that's another post). In the UK, USA, and many other countries, the lane is carried through the junction, or dropped altogether. Either way, a cyclist who is out of the flow of motor traffic at a junction is *much* more likely to get hooked or hit by a motorist who does not see him. Even the Danes found that cycle lanes make thing worse for cyclists at junctions. They have improved their designs considerably, but you'll note that the news coming out of Copenhagen these days is not about cycle lanes, but cycle highways; segregated cycle facilities with priority signalling for cyclists.

The Dutch only install cycle lanes these days when there simply is no other alternative. The most common place to see them is crossing bridges. A limited number of river/canal crossings means they connot be converted to cycle-only traffic, and the limited space (especially on very old bridges) means they cannot install a segrated path. So, the segregated path joins the road as a cycle lane for the span of a bridge, then returns to the segregated path after the bridge. Even so, it is more likely that the next bridge down, will, if possible be turned into a cycle-only route, leaving one for motor vehicles and one (or more) for bicycles.

Even most Dutch cycles lanes don't allow me to get the width of my trailer safely within the lane. At least in the Netherlands, people don't yell at someone for hauling their kids around by bike (unless maybe it's encouragement :) )
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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby patricktaylor » 30 May 2013, 9:12am

Mark1978 wrote:... there's nothing inherent about our roads or our country which means they can't be given the Dutch treatment, just a lack of will.

... Plus billions of pounds that don't exist, and thirty years of disruption (at least) - all for something that most people don't even want in the first place. "Dutch treatment" for British roads is a figment of the imagination - one of those things that the more you talk about, the more you imagine it might happen.

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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby reohn2 » 30 May 2013, 10:21am

patricktaylor wrote:
Mark1978 wrote:... there's nothing inherent about our roads or our country which means they can't be given the Dutch treatment, just a lack of will.

... Plus billions of pounds that don't exist, and thirty years of disruption (at least) - all for something that most people don't even want in the first place. "Dutch treatment" for British roads is a figment of the imagination - one of those things that the more you talk about, the more you imagine it might happen.


I'd just like to be given some respect(I think I earn it) by that crazy element of road users intent on being completely blind toward cyclists,and there's none so blind as them that won't see.
Yesterday within five miles we(I was solo and was riding with a tandem and one other solo)were overtaken by a 7.5ton box truck on a narrow lane on a totally blind left hand bend,luckily there was no oncoming traffic but it was shear luck.Further on the same thing happened,this time it was a small h/back which began overtaking in the face of oncoming traffic and having to brake sharply to avoid a head on,the driver received some sharp words from the driver of the oncoming Transit sized van.
These are by no means isolated incidents and IMHO stem from a severe social attitude problem toward driving in the presence of vulnerable road users,which isn't helped by a limpwristed attitude by the judicial system toward any motoring offences or criminal behaviour,even the most serious of offences and a belief by some drivers that cyclist shouldn't even be on the roads,due bigoted and misinformed beliefs that cyclists are some kind of free loading scavengers.
Until those issues are corrected and seen to be corrected,anything "less" than fourwheeled tin boxes will be treated as inferior at best and hated at worst a significant element of drivers.
The problem is IMO,far deeper than facilities can fix,that's if they were ever built in the first place.
EDIT:- for my usual grammar goofs
Last edited by reohn2 on 30 May 2013, 6:52pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby patricktaylor » 30 May 2013, 10:40am

reohn2 wrote:... The problem is IMO,far deeper than facilities can fix,that's if they were ever built in the first place.

That's my view. It's fundamentally a civil society issue, plain and simple. Bicycle infrastructure in the Dutch or Danish model will never be built in the UK, except in small pockets perhaps. Promoting the Dutch model as a 'solution' for British cycling, as if it could actually happen, is pointless at best, counter-productive at worst.

30kmh – making streets better - is achievable though.

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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby kwackers » 30 May 2013, 11:12am

As people say it's all about attitude.

Go to Italy where the driving is manic at best and step out to cross a busy road.
What happens?
Drivers will actually see you, they'll then either steer around you (if they can) failing that they'll stop and let you past.

Try the same in this country, firstly drivers won't see you until you're right in front of them, then they'll think "horn" and waste time pressing it and when that fails they'll resort to brakes at the last second (by which time it's probably too late).

And yet we drive much more sedately than the Italians, we obey rules better etc.

I often wonder why we're so cavalier with others when often we personally gain nothing by it and society suffers for it.

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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby patricktaylor » 30 May 2013, 11:34am

kwackers wrote:As people say it's all about attitude ...
I often wonder why we're so cavalier with others when often we personally gain nothing by it and society suffers for it.

I wonder too. National characteristics are strange. Road behaviour varies from country to country in my experience. In Holland, Denmark and Belgium I have found motorists to be quite indignant towards cyclists who are in the 'wrong place' (i.e. on the road). They might not accidentally kill you as readily as in the UK but they don't seem to like it.

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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby Vorpal » 30 May 2013, 11:42am

This is anecdotal, but...

A couple of weeks ago, I was riding on a main road in a small city in Norway. It's an area where the road is single carriageway, but two lanes in each direction. The speed limit is 60 km/h. I was on my bike, the first vehicle in the right lane waiting at a light. A car came up quite close behind me and the driver began revving the engine. As soon as the light changed, I took off, pedalling up to speed as quickly as possible. The driver behind me started honking the horn and followed me very closely, with an estimate 12" between my rear mudguard and his front bumper. After about 50 metres or so, he had a chance to change lanes, and made a point of passing as close to me as possible--without knowcking me off--when changing lanes.

After the car went past, I saw that the car was registered in another country.

I had been scared and intimidated. When it was all over, though, I realised that it was the first time I had experienced anything like that in Norway in a year or so and several thousand miles cycling. Things like that happened often enough in the UK that it was no longer remarkable. :(
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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby horizon » 30 May 2013, 12:19pm

If you would like an excuse to go out and drown your sorrows then look no further than this forum: http://www.drivertrainingtoday.co.uk/vi ... p?id=41987. Here is a typical excerpt, unfiar perhaps as it was only one of many:

"... where possible, cyclist should be on the footpath, we have a few small villages around here, they have footpaths between them, but dont allow cyclists on them. Now 30 year ago(or more) when these were built, people would walk on them, but not now, everyone wants to be driven here and there.

there are also footpaths along a local D/way, which NO ONE walks on, but still technically a footpath, so no cyclists.

local councils really need to get out of the offices for a day, drive round and identify possible cycle paths.

but if you place the cyclists in the middle of the road, there will be no need for cycle paths, cause there will be no cyclists :evil:

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Aagin, unfair as it is typical. if you really want to know why driver behaviour is so bad in the UK, look no further than the driving intructor.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby kwackers » 30 May 2013, 12:29pm

Actually I quite liked this response (to the idea that cyclists should ride in the middle of the road).

If cyclists were to do what has been suggested then it could be very dangerous if FOGGY and may cause a trip to a solicitor for some COMPO

To which you just want to poke him in the eye with a sharp pointy stick and shout; "if it's FOGGY shouldn't you be driving SLOWLY? What happened to being able to STOP in the distance YOU can see to be CLEAR!"

To be fair 'Driver99' does say:
Driver99 wrote:I'm surprised that ADIs don't seem aware of what/how other road users are being told/taught to ride.

And links to an article laying out primary and secondary positioning.

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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby patricktaylor » 30 May 2013, 12:57pm

horizon wrote:... if you really want to know why driver behaviour is so bad in the UK, look no further than the driving intructor.

Or the tabloid press.

There are times, and places, where driver behaviour is pretty good IMO, but probably not urban or suburban commuting. Motorists seem to behave better on Sundays.

I was cycling in Germany recently. They don't seem to have much of a problem with cyclists on footpaths as long as the footpath is divided with part of it marked out for bikes.

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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby 7_lives_left » 31 May 2013, 12:00am

I have been getting up extra early for a 6am start . There are fewer vehicles about but what ones there are are traveling at silly speeds for a nominal 30 mph road with housing. My guess is they are doing 45 mph.

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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby reohn2 » 31 May 2013, 7:41am

horizon wrote:.............Aagin, unfair as it is typical. if you really want to know why driver behaviour is so bad in the UK, look no further than the driving intructor.


I have had scary encounters with driving school cars,so it's no wonder some drivers are antagonistic and stupid if that's the attitude of the instructor.
We live in a society where that kind attitude is all to evident and it's most obvious and extrovert on our roads.
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Re: 30kmh – making streets liveable

Postby Mark1978 » 31 May 2013, 12:30pm

http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.co ... mpaigning/

Good, if long, article about the CTC and how the 'no surrender' attitude is seriously damaging cycling in the UK. I agree with every word.

tl;dr - The attitude that cycling provision should be a war on cars to reclaim the roads has already been lost. Let go our own way.