Hate crime extension

reohn2
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby reohn2 » 6 Apr 2013, 1:49pm

thirdcrank wrote: The bullying has never put me off,

Nor me it's the one thing that hate the most and is at the root of minority crime

but to put it at it's very least, it must be likely to discourage some people.

Without doubt,and whilst a police force's official stand on the the matter maybe stated as policy,the actions of officers on the beat can be a different thing altogther,especially if they're undermanned and run off their feet*.
If there were as much action as politrickal promises minority groups might feel a little safer on the streets IMHO.

* during the inquest into my grandaughter's death one of the witnesses,a young man who was 17 at the time,had two Wigan based police officers visit him on a building site in central Liverpool to sign a statement(there was no hurry it was a week after the incident),much to the coroner's annoyance(who asked that their Chief Superintendent attend so he could give her a rollocking openly in the hearing and tell to see that it dodn't happen again)
It seem's police officers aren't run off the feet all the time :? .
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thirdcrank
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby thirdcrank » 6 Apr 2013, 2:22pm

I don't feel under any obligation to field all society's (or this forum's) problems with the police, although I do try to provide explanations when I can see them.

The basic points for me, especially in a time of cutbacks, are that for something to have any chance of receiving attention it first needs to be recognised as a problem and then it needs to be given some sort of priority. I'm not saying attention is then guaranteed, I'm saying "to have any chance."

reohn2
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby reohn2 » 6 Apr 2013, 3:40pm

TC, I'm not having a pop you,or anyone else on here FTM,I'm just telling it the way I see it.
I seems to me that crime is on the rise no matter what any surveys or polls would have us believe.
I know of numerous people who've not reported crime because they felt it useless and other's who've only reported crime for a crime/incident number because they've needed to claim off their insurance for damages sustained.Everytime I have had reason to report a crime or have any involvement with the police,some of which I've posted about on here in the past,the outcome is never satisfactory.
I'm yet to see any real commitment from them when I need their help or advise whether as citizen,cyclist or motorist.
That could be for any number of reasons but it leaves a nasty taste.
Back to the inquest,out of six witness statements two were wrongly dated,and the other one I've already mentioned,when two police officers travelled approx 20miles to have it signed by a 17year old who by all accounts should have had a parent or guardian present.
No thought was given to the fact that the poor lad had his boss getting on his case for having the police turn up on the job putting him a bad light,which must have put a 17year old under extreme pressure,so that he simply signed the statement without reading it and went back to work.
All this the week after he'd seen two young people,both of whom he knew,killed in front of him in horrific circumstances!
He only found out later when he did read it,that certain things in it were completely wrong!

Is it any wonder the police aren't given any credibility if they can't even get the date right most of the time,not to mention their crass insensitivity as they went for a witness seeking joy ride?
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belgiangoth
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby belgiangoth » 6 Apr 2013, 4:50pm

If it appears that crime is on the increase there are two possibilities:
1 - Crime is on the rise.
2 - The media's coverage of crime is on the rise.

The second would suggest that crime is falling to such levels that it is becoming newsworthy, which would be a good thing.

I know that there's no point in reporting near misses or verbal from motorists, from past experience. 3-4 years ago I did get some verbal from a motorist, took a photo of his licence plate and he then stole my phone. Cops had my phone back to me the same day. The difference is something tangible to work with ... maybe I need to start using that cycle-cam I got.
If I had a baby elephant, it would point out that there is no evidence for planing. Then it would eat all my bananas.

belgiangoth
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby belgiangoth » 6 Apr 2013, 4:59pm

reohn2 wrote:OTOH a very good friend of mine who is black and gay(though not overtly) has no end of problems with being "questioned" by the police whilst simply walking along the street.

There was a story on the beeb news about two men who took a road trip to torture and murder some singer (in cornwall I think). They didn't get caught at the petrol station where they drove off without paying; they didn't get arrested when they were randomly stopped by the cops. But once they got to a small village, the cops were called and they were arrested, with the cops only then discovering their arsenal of weapons.
What tipped the locals off? Two black men in a van.
If I had a baby elephant, it would point out that there is no evidence for planing. Then it would eat all my bananas.

ericonabike
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby ericonabike » 6 Apr 2013, 9:46pm

Interesting - Leicester Cycling Campaign Group is meeting with our Police Commissioner on Monday. One of the issues we'll be raising is the abuse received from motorists. As an example, I'll be taking along a print out of the Tweets retweeted by @CycleHatred. Whilst on the one hand they can be dismissed as isolated rants, I personally think they illustrate how people believe they can abuse us with impunity. We suggested in our response to his draft policing plan that cyclists [whilst on the road] could reasonably be regarded as a 'vulnerable group'. This wasn't taken up, but I'd be curious to hear if anyone else has pursued this line.
Motorists' mantra: Cyclists must obey the law and the Highway Code AT ALL TIMES. Unless their doing so would HOLD ME UP.

thirdcrank
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Apr 2013, 12:37pm

Perhaps we should consider ourselves lucky that this policymaker for the police in Kent hasn't passed her driving test yet. :shock:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-22057246

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jan19
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby jan19 » 8 Apr 2013, 12:12am

There was a story on the beeb news about two men who took a road trip to torture and murder some singer (in cornwall I think). They didn't get caught at the petrol station where they drove off without paying; they didn't get arrested when they were randomly stopped by the cops. But once they got to a small village, the cops were called and they were arrested, with the cops only then discovering their arsenal of weapons.
What tipped the locals off? Two black men in a van.


My eldest went to Leicester Uni and went on a short break with a group of friends to Cornwall in her third year. They hired a Leicester Uni van which was daubed in the university logo - it was cheap to borrow in the holidays -and on arrival in Newquay a local looked at them and then at the van and said "you can't be from Leicester, you're all white". When told that he'd seen all the (all white) students on the bus, he was happy to let them into the hostel.

She's never forgotten that. Having been brought up in London, where we're used to all colours, creeds and persuasions (and are happy to embrace them to enhance the diversity of the city) she found the implied antipathy to black people very disturbing.

She's now working for a charity which supports people from an alternative lifestyle.
Jan

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661-Pete
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby 661-Pete » 8 Apr 2013, 10:28am

I am somewhat uncomfortable with characterising offensive or violent abuse against cyclists as a 'hate crime'.

To my mind it fits in the same categories as road rage, school bullying, and internet trolling, none of which I see as hate crime. That is not to say, of course, that I condone this sort of thing: it is still totally reprehensible: but 'labelling' an activity, especially with the 'wrong' label - as I see it - doesn't really get us anywhere.

No doubt others will disagree with me. This is a sensitive topic.

A couple of years ago I fell foul of a bout of particularly nasty internet trolling from - I regret to say - a group of other cyclists. It affected my state of mind more than it really ought to have - probably because I was in a rather uncertain state at the time and suffering from depression. I printed out the 'evidence' and showed it to the shrink whom I was seeing. She wasn't much help - as I saw it at the time. She did, indeed, try to label what I'd experienced as a sort of hate crime - in effect attributing what had happened, to something which was not there. I thought this was nonsense, but I didn't say so: no point in alienating one's psychiatrist! She did come up with some useful therapies to deal with it. I stopped going soon after. I wanted a reason for what had happened, and the shrink didn't 'provide' me with one. The whole business weighed on my mind from a long time, but I think I finally shook it off, by a realisation that it's the perpetrators who make themselves ridiculous when they do this sort of thing, not the victims.

Much the same can be said of those who post abusive comments on cyclists in the DM, or who shout abuse at cyclists on the road. They merely denigrate themselves.

When they start endangering the life of a cyclist, then of course it's a totally different ball game. Just as those who murdered Stephen Lawrence are in a totally different category to those who simply make offensive remarks about someone's ethnicity.

How much does verbal cyclist abuse put people off cycling? I feel that perceived danger of cycling on busy roads is a stronger factor.
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xpc316e
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby xpc316e » 8 Apr 2013, 11:56am

When I became a constable, many years ago, I pledged to uphold the law without fear, or favour. It is of course wrong that people cannot go about their lawful business without being assaulted and terrorised, but it is equally wrong for GMP to treat any one group of victims differently to another. What they need to do is get out there and arrest a few of the folk who make the rest of feel uneasy on the streets.
Riding a Dahon Jetstream P9 folder, a Claud Butler Cape Wrath MTB, and the latest acquisition, an early 90s Vision R30 above seat steered recumbent.

thirdcrank
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby thirdcrank » 8 Apr 2013, 5:49pm

I'm from the olden days of serving "our Sovereign Lady Queen Elizabeth II" but I see it changed a bit in 2002:

I... of... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will, to the best of my skill and knowledge, discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law (my emphasis


I quoted from the GMP media release further up the thread, and here's the next bit of that release:

... hate crime ... will be recorded as a crime by GMP in the same way as disability, racist, religious, sexual orientation and transgender hate crime to provide better support to victims and repeat victims. (my emphasis)


It seems to me - as others have also suggested or implied - that to the extent my first highlighted bit is successful, the less anybody is worried about the second. This may come across as pedantry but you have to plough through the release almost to the end to find the words "stop it."

IMO, recognising that some people may be specifically at risk of attack and putting measures in place to prevent those attacks is hardly favouritism - it's basic policing. Unfortunately, the basics are easility lost to view in the world of PR.

reohn2
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby reohn2 » 8 Apr 2013, 6:44pm

thirdcrank wrote:IMO, recognising that some people may be specifically at risk of attack and putting measures in place to prevent those attacks is hardly favouritism - it's basic policing. Unfortunately, the basics are easily lost to view in the world of PR.


Spot on!
And that is IMHO what policing has come down to,we are in sorry state.
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby Cyril Haearn » 30 Jul 2018, 5:59pm

belgiangoth wrote:
gaz wrote:I do not imagine that many goths define themselves as goths just because of the way that they dress, I imagine that they remain goths 24/7. However I would not expect many people dressed in goth style to neither define themselves as goths nor see themselves as part of a goth culture.

You can tell a goth from someone pretending to be a goth, because the goth will say "I'm not a goth, I just dress in black, listen to goth music and all my friends are goths ... but I'm not a goth".

Plus One for Germany :wink:
There is a big goth gathering in Leipzig every year, boring old people go along to watch, no trouble I know of
Likewise CSD, there are many parades in different cities, the rainbow flag is flown by the town hall, no trouble
Entertainer, idealist, intellectual, PoB, 30120
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atoz
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby atoz » 6 Aug 2018, 11:36am

Si wrote:There's a lot of people out there doing lots of work to make cycling be seen as a normal everyday thing than anyone can be involved in rather than a specialist activity for an elite subculture. They'd probably be pretty happy not to be included in such a list!


The point is, other people think otherwise, and target us accordingly. There is plenty of research to indicate this. Cycling fits the classic definition of an "out" group. But what's "normal" anyway? What defintion would you use? Who would be included within it? Or are we so worried about the anti lycra publicity?

I work in an environment where people are trained and encouraged to value diversity. Interestingly enough, at a recent Cycling UK AGM there was a motion, as far as I recall, for Cycling Uk to adopt an equality and diversity policy- which got nowhere.

An intersting aside. When wearing a white and (giro) pink cycle jersey on the bike I was met by an ex-work colleague who commneted I was "on trend" (pink is of course on trend- just look in any department store). When wearing a Perfetto LS top in a similar colour at a recent event I got a less favourable response. So maybe our own community is not quite on board with these mattters. .and I think you can guess my gender..

Vorpal
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Re: Hate crime extension

Postby Vorpal » 6 Aug 2018, 11:44am

I don't think that it is unreasonable to include cyclists in the eligibility for hate crimes. Not because we are a subculture, but because of how drivers perceive us and respond.

If a motorist commits a crime because the victim was a cyclist, then surely that should be eligible to be considered a hate crime just as if someone commited a crime just because the victim was visibly disabled or an ethnic minority.

I don't think that allowing the legal prosecution of hate crimes against cyclists makes them an elite subgroup, any more than allowing legal prosecution of hate crimes against any others makes them an elite subgroup.

We have already been singled out when a motorist assaults a cyclist. Why not give the justice system another means to mete appropriate justice?
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― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom