Dangerous driving

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[XAP]Bob
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Dangerous driving

Postby [XAP]Bob » 16 Apr 2013, 2:02pm

Is it time we struck this offence, and called it something else. "negligent" driving maybe?

Purely on the basis that Driving is inherently dangerous, it's not only dangerous if you do it badly...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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meic
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby meic » 16 Apr 2013, 2:08pm

How about "careless"?
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freeflow
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby freeflow » 16 Apr 2013, 2:47pm

The terminoogy needs to change so that it can be better understood.

e.g. 'Without due care and attention' could become 'Without attention to pedestrians, signage, other road users or driving conditions'

'Dangerous driving' could become 'With disregard to pedestrians, signage, other road users, or traffic conditions'

stewartpratt
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby stewartpratt » 16 Apr 2013, 3:11pm

It would be rather hyperbolic - nay, absurd - to label all driving as "dangerous". You might as well say that all cycling is dangerous, or all egg-frying is dangerous.

To my mind the problem lies with the term "careless driving", not "dangerous driving".

Take a look at all the things that end up being categorised as "careless" and they're all inherently dangerous ways to drive. If a sufficient level care is not taken whilst driving, that's when it's dangerous. Calling them "careless" and using phrases like "momentary lapse of concentration" perpetuates the view that driving is something one should be able to do without paying full attention and without full responsibility for one's own vehicle or full culpability for incidents that arise from it coming into contact with anything else.

freeflow
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby freeflow » 16 Apr 2013, 3:46pm

Not hyperbolic but correct. But you need to differentiate between dangerous with intent and dangerous without intent. Similar to the distinction between manslaughter and murder.

mrjemm
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby mrjemm » 16 Apr 2013, 3:46pm

How about outlawing stupidity, forgetting any reference to driving?

Hmmm, maybe too much work for the courts and prisons.

How about lack of consideration?

Same again...

Maybe a better option would be 'behaving dangerously towards others'. With a 'lesser' crime of 'being inconsiderate with regards to others'.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby [XAP]Bob » 16 Apr 2013, 4:26pm

I would argue that all driving is inherently dangerous.

Fairly low risk, assuming that proper care is taken, but significant danger imply from a large mass object travelling at significant speed.

Maybe calling it "risky" driving, but I still think that fails to capture what we're trying to legislate against.

I'm quite happy to acknowledge that there is a state between fully attentive and homicidal - "careless" prbably describes it quite well. It's that the higher offence implies that driving "normally" isn't dangerous:

In 2011 there were ~2900 deaths on the roads in UK: source
In 2011 just 114 persons were convicted of causing death by dangerous driving: source

Even given a number of drivers who were killed in the collision, and each incident being more than one fatality, that's a frighteningly low number - if you have caused a death then what you were doing was dangerous - "danger of death".

I will accept that the numbers are not so high as for it to be a hugely risky activity (more people die falling) but it is different from most other dangerous activities we undertake: The danger is largely to *other* people.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby [XAP]Bob » 16 Apr 2013, 4:43pm

freeflow wrote:Not hyperbolic but correct. But you need to differentiate between dangerous with intent and dangerous without intent. Similar to the distinction between manslaughter and murder.


So a third category

Careless
Negligent
Offensive
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

DDW
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby DDW » 16 Apr 2013, 5:50pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
freeflow wrote:Not hyperbolic but correct. But you need to differentiate between dangerous with intent and dangerous without intent. Similar to the distinction between manslaughter and murder.


So a third category

Careless
Negligent
Offensive



Maybe

Careless
Negligent
Aggressive
Everything is relative with proper perspective.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby [XAP]Bob » 16 Apr 2013, 7:01pm

DDW wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
freeflow wrote:Not hyperbolic but correct. But you need to differentiate between dangerous with intent and dangerous without intent. Similar to the distinction between manslaughter and murder.


So a third category

Careless
Negligent
Offensive



Maybe

Careless
Negligent
Aggressive


Better.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby Vorpal » 16 Apr 2013, 8:45pm

It doesn't much matter what you call if no one does anything about it.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby [XAP]Bob » 16 Apr 2013, 9:40pm

Vorpal wrote:It doesn't much matter what you call if no one does anything about it.

Only partly true.
Opinions are defined by these words.

"I don't drive 'dangerously' therefore I must be a safe driver"
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

DDW
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby DDW » 17 Apr 2013, 7:54am

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Vorpal wrote:It doesn't much matter what you call if no one does anything about it.

Only partly true.
Opinions are defined by these words.

"I don't drive 'dangerously' therefore I must be a safe driver"



More like "I don't have accidents so I must be a good driver".

The police can't enforce the current laws properly so it won't make much difference. I see people driving while on their phones daily as well as tailgating and of course speeding, general aggressive driving is common. until a step change in a majority of drivers occurs where we all obey all the traffic rules like speed enforcement then there will always be dangerous roads. If a bad driver were a minority then the police might be able to do something about them. It up to us all to drive responsibly. How many of us speed in our cars.

There is a fast road near my home which passes a school, the limit is 30mph but most do at least 50. I on the other hand do 30 and have had some shocking reactions from other motorists. Overtaking before the brow of a small hill, or at a right turn filter lane, into oncoming traffic and of course with disregard for cyclists in the road.
Should I speed like them to avoid this happening or obey the law like I have been ?
Everything is relative with proper perspective.

stewartpratt
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby stewartpratt » 17 Apr 2013, 8:44am

[XAP]Bob wrote:I would argue that all driving is inherently dangerous. Fairly low risk, assuming that proper care is taken, but significant danger imply from a large mass object travelling at significant speed.


Then it would follow that travelling on a train or an aeroplane is dangerous. I would argue that "danger" is a product of probability and consequence.

Plummeting to the ground in an aeroplane has somewhat severe consequences, but the probability of that happening is minimal. So I don't see flying as a dangerous activity. Getting into a private plane with an incompetent pilot - that might be dangerous. I doubt anyone would dispute that flying with an incompetent pilot is more dangerous than flying with a competent one, therefore danger is a function of aptitude.

With a hypothetically infallible pilot and a hypothetically failproof aircraft, there is surely no danger; danger is not inherent to momentum, but momentum is certainly a multiplier. We're sitting on an enormous rock moving through space but we don't see that as dangerous, even though were that to hit another rock of any significant size we'd be stuffed.

And so it is for driving. Collisions can always have severe consequences, but if the probability of the occurrence of a collision is reduced to a level that is "low enough" (let's just use that abstract phrase for the sake of argument rather that try to define what it might be) - by some combination of infrastructure, vehicle characteristics, driver aptitude - then I would contend it is not dangerous.

The issue is that the drop in driver aptitude required to make driving become dangerous is fairly small; more to the point, such drops are readily effected by the sorts of behaviour that many people view as perfectly acceptable.

And I would argue that labelling such behaviours as "careless" is to dramatically understate the effect that they have on the level of danger.

reohn2
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Re: Dangerous driving

Postby reohn2 » 17 Apr 2013, 11:20am

Vorpal wrote:It doesn't much matter what you call if no one does anything about it.

Exactly!
Two incidents yesterday that beggered belief to my mind:-
a) single track road with passing places mucky verges and central strip from farm vehicles.A car approached from behind at speed(i was doing 20+mph) and right up behind me in a threatening(to me)manner,he can wait until the passing place 40m ahead,where he overtakes me too close for comfort(0.5m) and gesticulates.3to400m further on he turns into his drive.Where I mention how much time that manoeuvre must have saved him,he shouts something to which I question the dubiousness of his parentage,he mumbles something and I tell him to go forth and multiply in an Anglo Saxon fashion,I then leave.

b) looonng straight wideish road(50 limit) with a left hand kink in it,just after which is road on the left.I can just see a big car(jag)approaching the junction with the road I'm on,there is a car approaching me from behind and I judge that Jag will turnout toward me as the car behind me overtakes.I signal a right hand turn but with a open hand,palm facing the overtaking car,he slows down,he still can't see the Jag which has now decided she's got enough room to get out before the man on the bike.everything happens exactly as I knew it would.
The Jag clears,the car waits and everyone's safe.
As the overtaking car passes he leans on the horn and gesticulates,I'm bemused :? .There was another car close behind who's passenger smiles at me and mouth's "thank you".

IMHO dangerous driving is all too common,but then if no one's willing to do anything about it,it will remain common practice and can only get worse.
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