Pedal reflector law fixes

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SA_SA_SA
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Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by SA_SA_SA »

With reference to CJ's blog Lots of brilliant lights but still illegal http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/chris-juden/lots-of-brilliant-lights-but-still-illegal .

Amber pedal reflectors and alternatives:

I would prefer any alternative to the requirement for pedal reflectors (non-powered) to be be similarly
non-powered.

the simplest option would be to just delete the RVLR pedal reflector requirement but keep the point of sale requirements for pedal reflectors on full bikes supplied with pedals, and mention the utility of them or ankle bands in the highway code.
Or just delete all laws on pedal reflectors but keep the highway code mention of their or ankle bands utility.

Alternatively, why not allow amber "pedal" reflectors to be fitted elsewhere (e.g. to recumbent seat back/ on stalks from seat stays etc ) facing rearwards and at appropriate low height and distance apart etc but positioned in the image of a freewheeling cyclist:
the colour and positioning will indicate a cyclist (everyone freewheels sometime!!) .

If the above fixed amber reflectors are not allowed what about a large low mounted red reflective area
(eg two Z carrier reflectors width) mounted low, to work the same way as the low mounted reflective red strips on the backs of buses which apparently reduce the number of cars driving into the back of (lit) stopped buses.

Also, if a pedal reflector law is kept perhaps only rear facing pedal reflectors could be required when toe-clips are fitted.

Even low mounted amber pedal reflectors are lit quite late by dipped beams (IMHE). On motor vehicle main beams: surely no additional help to see people should be expected (by the law) to be needed with that kind of optical power/reach.

I also don't like the idea of an extra flashing rear lamp being legally required for special kinds of bike/pedals.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by thirdcrank »

I think it's important to understand how the machinery of govt works. There has to be a strong reason for changes in legislation: the most common reasons are lobbying pressure from vested interests as in "£££ talks", or some serious (as in headline grabbing) but possibly isolated incident which results in panic legislation. In the absence of something like that, things rumble on. There's a lot of spin which makes it seem that action has been taken when nothing has changed.

The consultation document, which eventually legalised flashing lamps for pedal cycles, consulted over three things, the other two being rear-facing flashing red lights on breakdown trucks (the main driver there being the fact that all those fancy Highway Patrol light bars have them as standard on the US model) and permitting blue flashing lights on the cars of customs officers.

The cycle lamp bit was restricted to flashers, not the lighting regs as a whole. Although CJ's submission on behalf of the CTC and my own effort (of which I was rather proud) included representations about pedal reflectors, that's not what the consultation was about and so we were ignored on that issue, although they stopped the Canute impersonation over flashing lamps.

You might just as well suggest cycling with a burning sparkler in either hand because nobody up there is listening. :evil:
sirmy
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by sirmy »

It's also not easy to find pedal reflectors, the only place I've found them was at SJS. If shops aren't stocking them how are you supposed to fit them and few non clip in pedals come fitted with reflectors (and of course clip ins can't take them)
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gaz
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by gaz »

My commuter currently has no pedal reflectors. It is a post October '87 bike that is required to have them after dark.

I have no doubt that if I were stopped by the police they would have me bang to rights.

However should there be some form of accident in which my lack of pedal reflectors were cited as contributory negligence, I'd hope that whoever was defending me would think to point out that I was just as visible as if I had been riding a pre October '87 bicycle.

Surely there is a duty to keep look out for such cycles on the road after dark rather than to rely on all cycles having pedal reflectors.
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Geriatrix
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by Geriatrix »

Reflective ankle bands and the reflective banding on bib tights are more effective than pedal reflectors in making the cyclist visible. Even when present, pedal reflectors are mostly obscured by foot overlap. If in practical terms the alternatives are better than the legal requirements then an insurance company would surely have to show that the absence of pedal reflectors influenced the outcome?
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basingstoke123
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by basingstoke123 »

Has anyone ever been stopped (or prosecuted) by the police for not having legal lights? (as opposed to failing to to have any lights).

Has anyone been stopped (or prosecuted) for not having a full complement of reflectors? The problem with reflectors is that they tend to break and fall off, and can be difficult to replace. How many people buy a new pair of peddles when one reflector breaks? Or a pair of new mudguards when the rear reflector breaks off?

Have there been any cases where using non-BS lights or missing some reflectors was used as an excuse to pass some of the blame onto a cyclist for an accident? Even when the cyclist had (technically) good and working lights?
Tonyf33
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by Tonyf33 »

Isn't the law that bikes over 11kg in Germany are now not required to have a dynamo lamp, thought this was changed earlier this year?

As for replacing pedal reflectors with an extra rear light, sorry but I don't agree with that in any shape or form.

If a bike has got a decent enough rear light & front so that one can easily be seen by (or to see the road by) then I fail to see how by not having reflectors (which rely solely on another light source directed at it) should give anyone a legal foothold to say sorry mate I didn't see you and get away with it when they mow you down.
We do not ask cars/vans/buses to be lit up with hi-vis and every reflector under the sun, it's the motor vehicle that is causing the danger and with the immensely bright vehicle lights they should be able to see you easily in dark conditions in any case.

A reflector does NOT project backwards or around corners, or through trees, nor can they be seen from the side..get rid of the law.
Last edited by Tonyf33 on 4 Nov 2013, 4:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mick F
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by Mick F »

gaz wrote:........... I was just as visible as if I had been riding a pre October '87 bicycle.
Good point.

Also, who's going to define "pre Oct 87 bicycle"?
My frame is pre Oct 87 but the rest of it ain't.
Mick F. Cornwall
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Mick F wrote:
gaz wrote:........... I was just as visible as if I had been riding a pre October '87 bicycle.
Good point.

Also, who's going to define "pre Oct 87 bicycle"?
My frame is pre Oct 87 but the rest of it ain't.

I'd suggest that the frame is as good a definition as you'll get, but if ciurse having it resprayed might be fun in court...

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thirdcrank
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by thirdcrank »

It must be almost 20 years since I suggested cyclists shouldn't be gung ho about police being too reasonable / idle / ignorant / busy to bother about bike lighting.

Going back to the time when D Blunkett introduced fixed penalties for pavement cycling, there was a suggestion, presumably by some govt spinner testing public reaction / showing how tough the govt was but without actually doing anything, that the pedal cycle lighting regs would be enforced by immediate roadside confiscation of the offender's bike. I don't suppose there was ever the slightest likelihood it might happen, but if it had the legislation wouldn't have said "riding without lights" but "not complying with the regs" which would cover no pedal reflectors. A couple of well-publicised cases of an entire club run, walking home, tiptoeing about on cleats in tights etc would have gone down very well in some quarters. We do get the crackdowns, but they are not that bad.

Then, as I've posted before, following what's come to be called a KSI collision, there's now always a thorough investigation by a specialist team. Vehicles are examined in meticulous detail with a report to match. The clothing of pedestrian and cyclist casualties is photographed to show visible it was, especially if the collision occurred after dark. I'm unaware of any instance of the lack of pedal reflectors being raised and I'm not disappointed if that seems to indicate that my fears have been unfounded. Nobody would report direct to me if it had happened, of course, and unfortunately, the possibility also remains. :(
Mark1978
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by Mark1978 »

thirdcrank wrote:The cycle lamp bit was restricted to flashers, not the lighting regs as a whole. Although CJ's submission on behalf of the CTC and my own effort (of which I was rather proud) included representations about pedal reflectors, that's not what the consultation was about and so we were ignored on that issue, although they stopped the Canute impersonation over flashing lamps.


Indeed I believe the law is worded such that if your lights having a steady mode, then using them in flashing mode is still illegal!

My pedals don't have reflectors, however I do have two flashing lights on the rear and a small light on the front always fitted.
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meic
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by meic »

Mark1978 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:The cycle lamp bit was restricted to flashers, not the lighting regs as a whole. Although CJ's submission on behalf of the CTC and my own effort (of which I was rather proud) included representations about pedal reflectors, that's not what the consultation was about and so we were ignored on that issue, although they stopped the Canute impersonation over flashing lamps.


Indeed I believe the law is worded such that if your lights having a steady mode, then using them in flashing mode is still illegal!

My pedals don't have reflectors, however I do have two flashing lights on the rear and a small light on the front always fitted.


I imagine this was just a lapse of attention to detail but they are not illegal, they just fail to satisfy the regulations for a tail light. It is the commission of a regulation taillight which is illegal.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by thirdcrank »

What I'm trying to get across is that they won't change this without being pushed into it by something they cannot ignore.

With flashers, it was the the fact that the "no flashing" rule was so visibly flouted that they were embarrassed into acting. The point that they made a dog's dinner out of the resulting lamp specs is just evidence that they changed the regs in haste but begrudgingly.

With pedal reflectors, there's simply not that prominent failure to comply, even though the underlying reason is what's available in the shops.

For some reason, the motor and motorcycle trade seems to have the govt at its beck and call. The cycle trade lobbies on behalf of its customers by selling bikes without pedals. :roll:
Adam S
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by Adam S »

thirdcrank wrote:The cycle trade lobbies on behalf of its customers by selling bikes without pedals. :roll:

This has got to be part of the problem. If cycle shops/websites were required to tell customers that the lights they were selling weren't legal (except as additional lights) and that some pedals couldn't be legally used at night, there'd be much more will on their part to see the regulations changed. At the moment most people are blissfully ignorant, the police have better things to do than enforce minor issues of non-compliance and that suits the cycle trade just fine
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by SA_SA_SA »

thirdcrank wrote:...
With flashers, ...The point that they made a dog's dinner out of the resulting lamp specs is just evidence that they changed the regs in haste but begrudgingly....


Thats why I thought of just deleting the whole pedal reflector RVLR requirement: surely thats not too complicated , and when I made more complicated suggestions to officialdom they just said they expected the police to not enforce the pedal reflector law.

*but is it too much effort?

Perhaps some laws should have a time limit then need reinstating (like income tax).
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