Pedal reflector law fixes

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by [XAP]Bob »

I have some bits to make an oscillating amber light on the rear of each mudguard to simulate pedals.

A basic decade counter, 2 sets of 10 amber LEDs and a 555 to provide pulses for the decade counter.

I do actually need to build it at some point, unfortunately I accidentally ordered mostly SMD:(
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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bretonbikes
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by bretonbikes »

I do wonder how many cycling accidents are caused by drivers really not seeing the cyclist. Apart from the very rare nutter dressed in black with no lights or reflectors down a dark street I would have thought it very very rare. In general drivers see a cyclist and take the conscious decision that they are in too much of a hurry/lazy to move over, or wait or otherwise give space and the accident occurs. It's the one reason I like the cycling hi-viz vest - in the countryside a driver comes round a corner and sees a big splodge of yellow and for a few milliseconds his/her little internal voice is saying 'police? emergency service? roadworks?' and they lift off and get ready to slow down - then they see it's 'only' a cyclist but they've already been put in that defensive position.

This is the only explanation I can find for the reaction I get from drivers compared with when I'm not wearing one (but am otherwise clearly visible). This doesn't work in town where the driver is expecting (and in some cases ignoring) cyclists in all sorts of dayglo stuff/reflectors/flashing lights etc.
38 years of cycletouring, 33 years of running cycling holidays, 8 years of running a campsite for cyclists - there's a pattern here...
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mjr
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by mjr »

Bretonbikes's experience is different to mine. I find dayglow has a small effect if I'm the tail of a bunch but not otherwise. What makes a difference is if I look over my shoulder.

Reflectors are useful at night. When in a car, I notice especially the periodic bobbing of pedal reflectors or ankle bands, but I've usually already clocked the tail light.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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bretonbikes
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by bretonbikes »

mjr wrote:Bretonbikes's experience is different to mine. I find dayglow has a small effect if I'm the tail of a bunch but not otherwise. What makes a difference is if I look over my shoulder.

Reflectors are useful at night. When in a car, I notice especially the periodic bobbing of pedal reflectors or ankle bands, but I've usually already clocked the tail light.


Eye contact certainly does help but is best done from the back of a tandem (especially if you have the sort of look SWMBO can generate...).
38 years of cycletouring, 33 years of running cycling holidays, 8 years of running a campsite for cyclists - there's a pattern here...
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by SA_SA_SA »

From "Bicycle Transportation: A Handbook for Cycling Transportation Engineers" By John Forester

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Qz4kAulpimgC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&ots=uAURrHlhjN&focus=viewport&dq=lr+1108+report+transport+and+research+lab+cycle

The bit about the gravel truck reminded me of my idea about the ECE70 (HGV/builders Skip) markers boards idea.

NB I 'm not commenting on his rather different views on pedal reflectors.
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by SA_SA_SA »

NB for pedal reflector alternatives, I understand the flashing rear light option is requested because it is commercially available now but I wondered if another more civilised alternative (moving rather than flashing) for where there are many many cyclists might be (like Xap Bob's) single red/amber? vertical "chase" mode led strip of approx same height as a pedal arc (small cranks might be 140mm so approx 280mm of led?). This could then light one LED at a time (up and down) to mimic a pedal reflector. *

One such device would suffice I presume. I presume the usual 4cd intensity rule would suffice.
EDIT when there is just one device fitted, it could be red rather than amber.

The law could then also additionally allow the above such a vertical chase mode option as future-proofing.
A gentle turn on/off i.e. fade in out of each would make it slightly nicer(smoother).

EDIT The device could be even more like pedal reflectors if it remained off until an approaching car was detected: this might be tricky though. :(
EDIT allowed for single vertical chase lamp to be red rather than amber.
Last edited by SA_SA_SA on 29 Jul 2014, 2:23pm, edited 2 times in total.
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crossroads
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by crossroads »

Is it not the case that the reason for having Reflectors as a legal requirement (especially when purchasing a bike) is that if the rider is on the road at night having chosen to use lights (like children/youths or foolish adults) they at least stand a chance of being spotted - assuming they haven't removed them of course.

(this may have been mentioned but I haven't viewed all 15 pages of the post.....)
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by SA_SA_SA »

crossroads wrote:Is it not the case that the reason for having Reflectors as a legal requirement (especially when purchasing a bike) is that if the rider is on the road at night having chosen to use lights (like children/youths or foolish adults) they at least stand a chance of being spotted

(this may have been mentioned but I haven't viewed all 15 pages of the post.....)

or their fitted lamps fail..

Even if pedals reflectors are "missing" due the inabilty to fit them visibly (eg some SPD pedals and recumbents)*: the standard basic red rear reflector should still be present....
Also, riders of such machines are perhaps less likely to meet your description.
Amber is brighter though
but
if you read this thread you will discover suggestions for alternative non-moving amber reflectors
as alternatives to pedal reflectors got rejected because there is only direct evidence to support (moving) pedal reflectors as uniquely identifying cyclists to the rear. The idea is that the Dft would need (to find or collect) evidence that such static patterns were similarly useful before considering them.

The Dft could of course accept flashing lamps as a stopgap and then instigate some research into such static reflective alternatives, for use in the future.

* thus the existence of this dead-ish thread to suggest legal alternative options to pedal reflectors for such machines.
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Bicycler
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by Bicycler »

crossroads wrote:Is it not the case that the reason for having Reflectors as a legal requirement (especially when purchasing a bike) is that if the rider is on the road at night having chosen to use lights (like children/youths or foolish adults) they at least stand a chance of being spotted - assuming they haven't removed them of course.

(this may have been mentioned but I haven't viewed all 15 pages of the post.....)

Definitely, IMO this is the main reason we should keep insisting upon reflectors fitted to new cycles. Reflectors are required by law to be fitted to cycles when sold. This is completely separate to the law requiring reflectors to be fitted to cycles ridden at night. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we change the first law so that cycles are sold without reflectors, merely alter the latter law to allow cyclists to make themselves visible in other ways when riding at night. What many keen cyclists do want is to be able to use clipless pedals, panniers or recumbents at night without falling foul of the law. For the vast majority of people this would make no difference as they use the cycle as it came from the shop. Alright, a law change would prevent " children/youths or foolish adults" being prosecuted for not having reflectors but this probably happens very rarely anyway as most would be prosecuted for not having lights.
youngster
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by youngster »

Isn't the law on reflectors a dead letter in practice? Does anybody really get prosecuted when they have what are in commonsense terms decent lights?

Where I live, 10-20% of riders after dark have no lights at all and nothing seems to happen to them either, so I would be surprised if anyone with decent lights was stopped.
thirdcrank
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by thirdcrank »

youngster wrote:Isn't the law on reflectors a dead letter in practice? Does anybody really get prosecuted when they have what are in commonsense terms decent lights?

Where I live, 10-20% of riders after dark have no lights at all and nothing seems to happen to them either, so I would be surprised if anyone with decent lights was stopped.


I think that in terms of enforcement you are right. Somewhere, on this thread or one of the others on the subject of pedal reflectors I've made much the same point (endlessly! comes the cry. :oops: ) This is even more likely to be the case with the increased employment of PCSO's to mount highly publicised but short-lived crackdowns.

What I've also frequently mentioned is the close attention to detail when somebody is killed or seriously injured. Even before I retired, it was normal practice, for example, for the clothing of a pedestrian casualty to be photographed, especially if they were hit at night, for the info of the Coroner. All the vehicles known to have been involved are subject to a detailed mechanical examination with a factual report about all the noted aspects of their condition. I'd like to think that a trained police vehicle examiner would be versed with the detail of the lighting regs, or at least would look it up. Such reports are available to all the other parties involved, at a price. Whether an insurance company defending a third party claim would make anything of this, or whether they would get away with it if they tried, I simply don't know. The deceased is past caring, but it's just the type of thing I'd want to spare the bereaved.
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Tigerbiten
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by Tigerbiten »

I ride a recumbent trike so legal pedal reflectors won't work on it as they won't be visible.
The reason I want the law fixed/tweaked is not the risk of prosecution when cycling after dark.
It's to stop some lawyer trying to talk the amount of compensation down after I had an accident in the dark due to the fact I don't have pedal reflectors.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by [XAP]Bob »

youngster wrote:Isn't the law on reflectors a dead letter in practice? Does anybody really get prosecuted when they have what are in commonsense terms decent lights?

Where I live, 10-20% of riders after dark have no lights at all and nothing seems to happen to them either, so I would be surprised if anyone with decent lights was stopped.


But now they're expecting PCSO's to do this enforcement, so expect a "crackdown on illegal cyclists" in your area.

I'm still awaiting a response from MP Goodwill (via my own MP of course)
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NUKe
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by NUKe »

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niggle
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Re: Pedal reflector law fixes

Post by niggle »

Suffolk Constabulary wrote:Anyone aged 17 or under who is caught will either be escorted home or visited at an arranged time by the officer, who will explain to their parents or guardians about why they were stopped, provide them with some cycle safety advice and a set of lights to fit to their child’s bike.
I wonder if they will be legal lights?
Suffolk Constabulary wrote:Sergeant Mark Shipton, of Newmarket Safer Neighbourhood Team, said: "Cyclists riding without lights are not only putting their own lives at risk, but are a danger to other road users and pedestrians who are not able to see them.
Really? I seriously doubt they are a significant risk to pedestrians, who will normally have the time and their sight adjusted to low light in order to spot them coming, and as for other road users, how? (OK to motorcyclists possibly, but IME they pay very close attention to what is in front of them when riding down the road).
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