CTC condemns deaths...

[reohn2]

Land mass and population?

Or it could be every man/woman and teenager needs a car because public transport is too costly, unreliable and doesn't go where it should when it should,not to mention the lack of joined up connections between the various systems.I'll not go into the madness of rail fare structures
All this madness adds up to the need for a car.
We should by rights have decent public transport systems in place,as it is unless those systems don't make the desired profits for their shareholders there is no public transport,so much for the unbridled capitalist system of thinking .
Public transport (like public utilities)should be run for the good of the people not on how much profit can be made out of it.
It seems to me we,as a small but densely populated country are painting ourselves into an ever smaller corner with regard to transport.

[Malaconotus]

Land mass and population?

Nope. Population density is the same as the cycling backwaters of Holland, Belgium and Germany... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_p ... _countries

[andrewk]

Land mass and population?

Nope. Population density is the same as the cycling backwaters of Holland, Belgium and Germany... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_p ... _countries

Same as...? Incorrect, average UK population density figures are worthless. London and the SE has the highest population density in Europe whilst much of Scotland is largely denuded of people.

[ukdodger]

Land mass and population?

Or it could be every man/woman and teenager needs a car because public transport is too costly, unreliable and doesn't go where it should when it should,not to mention the lack of joined up connections between the various systems.I'll not go into the madness of rail fare structures
All this madness adds up to the need for a car.
We should by rights have decent public transport systems in place,as it is unless those systems don't make the desired profits for their shareholders there is no public transport,so much for the unbridled capitalist system of thinking .
Public transport (like public utilities)should be run for the good of the people not on how much profit can be made out of it.
It seems to me we,as a small but densely populated country are painting ourselves into an ever smaller corner with regard to transport.

Commie.

[reohn2]

Commie.

[TonyR]

Land mass and population?

Or it could be every man/woman and teenager needs a car because public transport is too costly, unreliable and doesn't go where it should when it should,not to mention the lack of joined up connections between the various systems.I'll not go into the madness of rail fare structures
All this madness adds up to the need for a car.
We should by rights have decent public transport systems in place,as it is unless those systems don't make the desired profits for their shareholders there is no public transport,so much for the unbridled capitalist system of thinking .
Public transport (like public utilities)should be run for the good of the people not on how much profit can be made out of it.
It seems to me we,as a small but densely populated country are painting ourselves into an ever smaller corner with regard to transport.

Actually if you read The Dutch Bicycle Master Plan report by their Ministry of Transport which includes a review of the history of cycling in Europe it was the good public transport in the UK that did for the bicycle here. The Dutch, with poor post-war public transport and cars unaffordable carried on cycling while the Brits used the buses and trains instead.

[Richard Mann]

Actually if you read The Dutch Bicycle Master Plan report by their Ministry of Transport which includes a review of the history of cycling in Europe it was the good public transport in the UK that did for the bicycle here. The Dutch, with poor post-war public transport and cars unaffordable carried on cycling while the Brits used the buses and trains instead.

Indeed. We have to develop cycling in the context of significant public transport usage. Like Germany or Switzerland or Austria. As a result, it's unlikely that we'll ever get to the rates of cycling in the Netherlands & Denmark, or at least, not without restricting the car a *lot* more than they have done. Which wouldn't be a bad thing. But it isn't going to happen overnight.

Cambridge is a bit peculiar for the UK in not having much of a bus service, whereas Oxford is a lot more typical in that regard...

It will be interesting to see how CS2 develops. Mile End Road is (mostly) a four lane road with part time bus lanes, and widening at junctions. If they go for segregation, it's hard to see how they can protect the very-well-used buses. One option would be making the bus lanes 24hr, and not ending them before junctions, and making them wider but only in one direction at a time.

[TonyR]

Cambridge is a bit peculiar for the UK in not having much of a bus service, whereas Oxford is a lot more typical in that regard...

Cambridge has a pretty good bus service actually but where it is peculiar is students are not allowed to keep or have kept for them a car within 12 miles of the city centre. Oxford used to have such a rule IIRC but no more. You therefore have a lot of students in Cambridge who get around by bike and that encourages others to do the same.

In London, which has an excellent public transport system, cycling is becoming the dominant mode of commuter transport with levels of cycling approaching those of Cambridge. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/m ... 71069.html

[ukdodger]

Actually if you read The Dutch Bicycle Master Plan report by their Ministry of Transport which includes a review of the history of cycling in Europe it was the good public transport in the UK that did for the bicycle here. The Dutch, with poor post-war public transport and cars unaffordable carried on cycling while the Brits used the buses and trains instead.

Indeed. We have to develop cycling in the context of significant public transport usage. Like Germany or Switzerland or Austria. As a result, it's unlikely that we'll ever get to the rates of cycling in the Netherlands & Denmark, or at least, not without restricting the car a *lot* more than they have done. Which wouldn't be a bad thing. But it isn't going to happen overnight.

Cambridge is a bit peculiar for the UK in not having much of a bus service, whereas Oxford is a lot more typical in that regard...

It will be interesting to see how CS2 develops. Mile End Road is (mostly) a four lane road with part time bus lanes, and widening at junctions. If they go for segregation, it's hard to see how they can protect the very-well-used buses. One option would be making the bus lanes 24hr, and not ending them before junctions, and making them wider but only in one direction at a time.

Some good ideas there. Truth is we've become too used to our cars. Sometimes when I mention to people I cycle to London a distance of 15m they fall about in admiration as though it's like climbing Everest. People just dont realise cycling is three (I think five) times easier than walking. As a boy I delivered groceries in those huge old tea chest boxes carried on the front of a trade bike. Never see them now. Lots of deliveries could be made using those. It would help also if Red Ken was back as Lord Mayor of London. I didnt agree with all he said but he was right for London and even more right to extend the pay zone for vehicles which his successor abandoned.

[TonyR]

Sometimes when I mention to people I cycle to London a distance of 15m they fall about in admiration as though it's like climbing Everest.

What? You cycle all of 50ft into London? Are you sure its admiration they are falling about over?

[basingstoke123]

Land mass and population?

Or it could be every man/woman and teenager needs a car because public transport is too costly, unreliable and doesn't go where it should when it should,not to mention the lack of joined up connections between the various systems.I'll not go into the madness of rail fare structures
All this madness adds up to the need for a car.
We should by rights have decent public transport systems in place,as it is unless those systems don't make the desired profits for their shareholders there is no public transport,so much for the unbridled capitalist system of thinking .
Public transport (like public utilities)should be run for the good of the people not on how much profit can be made out of it.
It seems to me we,as a small but densely populated country are painting ourselves into an ever smaller corner with regard to transport.

Commie.

In a free market capitalist city, your pilot flies you from meeting to meeting in your private helicopter - so avoiding the traffic jams. Somewhere like Sao Paulo, this also has the benefit of being much safer from being mugged at gun point. Cars are for the unsuccessful.

[TonyR]

In a free market capitalist city, your pilot flies you from meeting to meeting in your private helicopter - so avoiding the traffic jams. Somewhere like Sao Paulo, this also has the benefit of being much safer from being mugged at gun point. Cars are for the unsuccessful.

In London, the world financial centre at the heart of the capitalist system, the majority of users of the Boris Bikes have incomes over £50k. So maybe in enlightened capitalism the bicycle has replaced the helicopter (which are noisy shaky things to ride in anyway with very limited landing sites in a big city so you're going to need a bike to get to your destination anyway).

To subvert an old saying, Cars are for elephants, bikes are for tigers.

[Malaconotus]

Land mass and population?

Nope. Population density is the same as the cycling backwaters of Holland, Belgium and Germany... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_p ... _countries

Same as...? Incorrect, average UK population density figures are worthless. London and the SE has the highest population density in Europe whilst much of Scotland is largely denuded of people.

No, again. London and the South East does not have the highest population density in Europe. I don't know where this canard comes from, but it just isn't true. Taken together, London and the South East has a population density less than half that of the Randstad (the equivalent densely populated corner of the Netherlands).

And regardless of the actual figures, is being crowded a reason not to have bicycle infrastructure? I would have thought it a good reason to design for bikes and not for cars, which consume far more of the precious space.

[ukdodger]

True but roads have already been designed around cars. The space has to come from somewhere and it can only be from that already given to motor vehicles.

And they wont be happy about it.

[Mark1978]

Land mass and population?

Nope. Population density is the same as the cycling backwaters of Holland, Belgium and Germany... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_p ... _countries

Same as...? Incorrect, average UK population density figures are worthless. London and the SE has the highest population density in Europe whilst much of Scotland is largely denuded of people.

And the excuses keep coming.