Pavement Parking

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 6 Mar 2019, 10:12am

It tends to make things worse for pedestrians generally, as they whole street becomes car-space. It only works where traffic volumes and speeds are very low (and when they're that low, parking tends not to be a problem).

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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby kwackers » 6 Mar 2019, 10:35am

Bmblbzzz wrote:It tends to make things worse for pedestrians generally, as they whole street becomes car-space. It only works where traffic volumes and speeds are very low (and when they're that low, parking tends not to be a problem).

But the whole street already is a car-space. Pavements and roads.
The only difference is that once on the road your average driver then believes there's no right of passage for peds.

That last point is as far as I see it the only change.

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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 6 Mar 2019, 12:00pm

In which case nothing has changed, unfortunately. My comment was a general one on roads without pavements. What actually happens on changing a carriageway plus pavement into shared space is going to depend on the individual circumstances. Sometimes it will be an improvement, sometimes not.

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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby pwa » 6 Mar 2019, 12:06pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:In which case nothing has changed, unfortunately. My comment was a general one on roads without pavements. What actually happens on changing a carriageway plus pavement into shared space is going to depend on the individual circumstances. Sometimes it will be an improvement, sometimes not.

I see it a lot on new cul-de-sacs with maybe half a dozen houses sharing what amounts to a communal driveway with no separate pavement. If enough room exists it can work well in that limited sort of situation, as cars are generally going at no more than walking speed anyway.

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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby mjr » 6 Mar 2019, 12:19pm

pwa wrote:I was trying to think of a place where some degree of pavement parking might have some possible justification, and I decided on this housing estate.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5801135 ... 6?hl=en-GB

Now I'm not excusing every instance of pavement parking you can see on Streetview there, but the cameras were there at a quiet time of day when a lot of folk are at work so later in the day it becomes harder to park. The roads are very narrow, often too narrow for a vehicle to park entirely on the road without forcing passing traffic to mount the pavement. There are legitimate off-road parking places, but too few at times when most people are at home. The only solution that would work would be removing the segregation (i.e. the footway) and making the whole carriageway into a shared use space with a very low speed limit. And I think that might work well. Traffic already moves around there slowly. The streets are purely residential, with no through traffic. Any thoughts?

It's still not justified and punishing walkers for motorists' misbehaviour by removing their footways seems rather unjust. Traffic may already move there slowly, but it looks like it's a 30mph limit, while the bigger road past it to the north is 20mph, which is very odd.

The only solution that would work would be creating more car storage spaces. A few could easily be made by narrowing the huge access road splays at the north and south accesses with bollards and/or kerbs and marking bays in the rest, but beyond that, it would mean sacrificing more land to gravel. Let the residents choose whether it's their front gardens, allotments, the massive green at the north end, or what, but fine them if they keep trying to steal the footways and thereby discourage walking!
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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby pwa » 6 Mar 2019, 12:47pm

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:I was trying to think of a place where some degree of pavement parking might have some possible justification, and I decided on this housing estate.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5801135 ... 6?hl=en-GB

Now I'm not excusing every instance of pavement parking you can see on Streetview there, but the cameras were there at a quiet time of day when a lot of folk are at work so later in the day it becomes harder to park. The roads are very narrow, often too narrow for a vehicle to park entirely on the road without forcing passing traffic to mount the pavement. There are legitimate off-road parking places, but too few at times when most people are at home. The only solution that would work would be removing the segregation (i.e. the footway) and making the whole carriageway into a shared use space with a very low speed limit. And I think that might work well. Traffic already moves around there slowly. The streets are purely residential, with no through traffic. Any thoughts?

It's still not justified and punishing walkers for motorists' misbehaviour by removing their footways seems rather unjust. Traffic may already move there slowly, but it looks like it's a 30mph limit, while the bigger road past it to the north is 20mph, which is very odd.

The only solution that would work would be creating more car storage spaces. A few could easily be made by narrowing the huge access road splays at the north and south accesses with bollards and/or kerbs and marking bays in the rest, but beyond that, it would mean sacrificing more land to gravel. Let the residents choose whether it's their front gardens, allotments, the massive green at the north end, or what, but fine them if they keep trying to steal the footways and thereby discourage walking!


I selected this area because I happened to be up there a few days ago and it struck me that vehicles already move around there very much as you would want them to if it were a shared space with no separate footway. They go slowly and in all the times I've been round there they have seemed patient with others in the road. I think maybe that is because they are used to the road environment there being cramped and just treat the place as one big traffic calmed feature. They can't go fast so they have given up trying, if that makes sense. So one thing you wouldn't want to do is make it easier to move quickly.

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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 6 Mar 2019, 1:04pm

pwa wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:In which case nothing has changed, unfortunately. My comment was a general one on roads without pavements. What actually happens on changing a carriageway plus pavement into shared space is going to depend on the individual circumstances. Sometimes it will be an improvement, sometimes not.

I see it a lot on new cul-de-sacs with maybe half a dozen houses sharing what amounts to a communal driveway with no separate pavement. If enough room exists it can work well in that limited sort of situation, as cars are generally going at no more than walking speed anyway.

I don't think I've seen any cul-de-sacs of that type. I'm familiar with residential streets without pavements and of course with the older cul-de-sacs with pavements like the one you link to.

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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby pwa » 6 Mar 2019, 1:18pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
pwa wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:In which case nothing has changed, unfortunately. My comment was a general one on roads without pavements. What actually happens on changing a carriageway plus pavement into shared space is going to depend on the individual circumstances. Sometimes it will be an improvement, sometimes not.

I see it a lot on new cul-de-sacs with maybe half a dozen houses sharing what amounts to a communal driveway with no separate pavement. If enough room exists it can work well in that limited sort of situation, as cars are generally going at no more than walking speed anyway.

I don't think I've seen any cul-de-sacs of that type. I'm familiar with residential streets without pavements and of course with the older cul-de-sacs with pavements like the one you link to.

Streetview last visited the centre of Llantwit Major on 2009! so I can't show you a nearby example close up, but the cul-de-sac in this image has no formal footways but seems to function quite well without.https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bridg ... 5?hl=en-GB

And this one near Neath. Again, I haven't seen any fast driving here. The lack of a demarcation between footpath and road seems to keep speed down to walking pace. https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6445465 ... 6?hl=en-GB

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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 6 Mar 2019, 4:37pm

One key factor there though is that they are closes, therefore reducing traffic volumes - no one goes down there unless to one of those houses, and speeds - everyone going down there is intending to stop pretty soon. Different from the average residential street.

What else happens in those spaces, in addition to driving and walking (and let's hope some cycling too)?

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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby Cyril Haearn » 7 Mar 2019, 5:47am

Shared space is rubbish, ensures that vehicles can go everywhere (I did some on-the-spot reaearch), alternative facts welcome :wink:

It would be great if pavement parking were not tolerated, in most places this would just narrow the road and reduce speed, Plus One
But how to explain after decades of turning three blind eyes? What about the motards who park illegally although there is plenty of space to park legally?
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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby Cyril Haearn » 7 Mar 2019, 6:32am

pwa wrote:..
thats the solution I was thinking of. The only real problem with that is that it could make things worse for the blind. Not the moving traffic, which is already very slow and (believe it or not) mostly patient around there, but the parked vehicles making moving in a straight line less easy.

'mostly' patient? :?

Visited Bohmte, shared space town in Germany, going from the train station into town there are tactile strips right and left for visually impaired people, both were completely blocked by parked vehicles

Shared space is rubbish!
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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 7 Mar 2019, 8:54am

Cyril Haearn wrote:Shared space is rubbish, ensures that vehicles can go everywhere (I did some on-the-spot reaearch), alternative facts welcome :wink:

It would be great if pavement parking were not tolerated, in most places this would just narrow the road and reduce speed, Plus One
But how to explain after decades of turning three blind eyes? What about the motards who park illegally although there is plenty of space to park legally?

Narrowing the carriageway is both good and bad. Even with the present de facto norm of parking with one wheel on the kerb, there are plenty of Victorian and older streets which are narrowed by parking so that a fire engine can't get through. Even ambulances have trouble -- last year a man a few miles from me died of a heart attack because the ambulance couldn't get to him, all due to parked cars. The root problem is that car ownership has reached numbers which are unsustainable on the infrastructure we have; parking problems flow from that.

By the way, by motards did you mean motorists in general? It's French slang for motorcyclists.

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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 7 Mar 2019, 10:57am

Bmblbzzz wrote:One key factor there though is that they are closes, therefore reducing traffic volumes - no one goes down there unless to one of those houses, and speeds - everyone going down there is intending to stop pretty soon. Different from the average residential street.

What else happens in those spaces, in addition to driving and walking (and let's hope some cycling too)?

Repeating this question, not to insist on an answer but to explain why I asked it. A residential area like that, especially a cul-de-sac, really should have non-traffic activities happening in it: kids running around, neighbours chatting, hopscotch and football, the occasional picnic in the summer, that sort of thing.

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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby Cyril Haearn » 9 Mar 2019, 7:30am

Motards also means 'normal drivers', forumspeak, used by kwackers and I and others
I believe in segregation, keeping vehicles away from people

There is an 'action', park-ing day, in September when campaigners take over parking spaces, pay for them, set up deckchairs and have a picnic
Tokenism, very tame, achieves almost nothing
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Re: Pavement Parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 9 Mar 2019, 8:39am

A picnic is always fun though and fun is something worthwhile achieved. :D