'Tax Discs - the End of the Road'

[ChrisButch]

The publicity which the DVLA is issuing about the planned withdrawal of the paper windscreen disc uses the term 'vehicle tax' throughout. Many media outlets are reproducing the DVLA's text verbatim, and this is getting widespread coverage, so it should get the attention of drivers who have automatically paid every year without bothering to read any of the paperwork. With luck the term 'vehicle tax', although not without its problems, will start to get wider currency as a result. Whether it will ever actually replace 'road tax' in popular usage remains to be seen.

[thirdcrank]

If people begin to snarl "You don't pay vehicle tax," would that be a significant improvement?

[drossall]

At least, under the new system, the CTC could afford to campaign to make bikes subject to the tax.

As we all know, if there were VED on bikes, there would be 100% discount because of low emissions. The issue at the moment is that it would expensive for the government and inconvenient for cyclists to issue and fit discs to bikes, all for a zero tax take.

Presumably the new system will use number-plate recognition to check that tax has been paid. Any official (or camera) who can identify a bike will be able to guarantee, therefore, that the appropriate tax has been paid, and so bikes (and pedestrians and horses) may as well be subject to it

[beardy]

Except the emission related zero-rate doesnt apply to two wheelers, only to four wheelers.

A very low emission 100mpg moped still has to pay for its vehicle excise duty disc. Its tax class is called "bicycle" so it is most likely that is the class that bicycles will be allocated in.

[yakdiver]

I have this on my bike

[661-Pete]

I have some misgivings about this proposal. Up till now, members of the public have played a part in 'shopping' untaxed (OK, OK, un-VED'd) vehicles on the road. With no tax disc, you won't be able to tell at a glance whether a vehicle is insured (or - more accurately - was insured at the time the VED was last renewed). Isn't this putting the public at a disadvantage?

I'd go for the French system, where there's a green rectangular counterpart ('vignette') to the insurance certificate, which they have to put on the windscreen. Like our tax disc, it conveys information to the casual passer-by. For one thing, it confirms the registration number, less easy to forge or 'disguise' than the numberplates themselves.

[Psamathe]

(Sorry, a bit off topic but ...)

I'd go for the French system, where there's a green rectangular counterpart ('vignette') to the insurance certificate, which they have to put on the windscreen. Like our tax disc, it conveys information to the casual passer-by. For one thing, it confirms the registration number, less easy to forge or 'disguise' than the numberplates themselves.

Or discard the entire system and move the revenue generation on to petrol tax.

Always struck me as a fairer way to do things as people who drive longer distances pay more, people with "gas guzzlers" pay more. Whilst people driving shorter distances, using efficient cars, driving efficiently, etc. pay less. Sort of adds a bit of pressure for people to make less use of their vehicles.

And, in theory, if the government switched with the promise that the revenue raised from the switch would be the same as the revenue raised through VED (i.e. not an excuse to raise more taxation income) then it would be a lot hard for people to complain as much.

Ian

[Mick F]

We've had this discussion in the past - transferring VED onto fuel. I'm not all for this idea, though partially yes.
Some people have no option but to use a car, and even if they are efficient etc, their mileages can be quite high. Some people live where there isn't a decent public transport system and cycling would be too far. I'm thinking N Scotland or parts of rural England and Wales. It's all very well in the highly populated areas, but not nation wide.

You could argue that 10,000miles a year is far enough, and use that figure for calculation, but what happens if you drive 75miles a day 5 times a week just to get to work and back? It could easily be 18,000miles for people. Some people round here work in Exeter 50miles each way - only an hour by car, but could be 4hrs by public transport.

Maybe 3rd party insurance could be covered in the fuel costs. Too many folk drive without insurance, so the state could cover the basic insurance.

[simonineaston]

I have some misgivings about this proposal. Up till now, members of the public have played a part in 'shopping' untaxed (OK, OK, un-VED'd) vehicles on the road. With no tax disc, you won't be able to tell at a glance whether a vehicle is insured (or - more accurately - was insured at the time the VED was last renewed). Isn't this putting the public at a disadvantage?

I'd go for the French system, where there's a green rectangular counterpart ('vignette') to the insurance certificate, which they have to put on the windscreen. Like our tax disc, it conveys information to the casual passer-by. For one thing, it confirms the registration number, less easy to forge or 'disguise' than the numberplates themselves.

Completely agree - round where I live, 'unloved' cars are common and to give the authorities their due, if you report an abandoned car, it pretty quickly disappears One pretty good way to tell if a vehicle is unloved is if it has an out-of-date tax disc...

[661-Pete]

Or discard the entire system and move the revenue generation on to petrol tax.

As far as revenue generation goes - yes I agree - but there ought to be some sort of document attached to each vehicle, even if it's not associated with a charge: just to show that the car is 'kosher'. So many vehicles on our roads aren't.

I believe vintage cars over a certain age, and electric vehicles, have been zero-rated for VED for some time, but they still display the disc.

[Bicycler]

I don't agree with Mick on this one but he illustrates why the change will never happen. Some people will lose out massively. The majority may benefit but in a smaller way. If we take the position that it is correct to tax people for the use of motor vehicles on the roads then it is only right that the taxation is proportional to use. Particularly when that tax is alleged to be a pollution tax. Obviously use of fuel is a much better estimate of actual pollution caused than engine size or co2 emissions per kg. In effect the current situation subsidises high mileage drivers at the expense of low mileage drivers. If paying the correct tax would bring about hardship it can even be argued that patterns of work whereby people drive huge distances are in part a result of this subsidy. In truth I don't really think that would be the case because the marginal increase on the price of fuel would be comparatively small and the cost would be spread over the year.

I will point out that countries with much lower population densities have similar or higher per mile costs. Contrary to tabloid opinion we don't pay significantly higher prices than much of the rest of Europe.

[thirdcrank]

I .... Up till now, members of the public have played a part in 'shopping' untaxed (OK, OK, un-VED'd) vehicles on the road. ...

Have you any info about how much of that occurs? IME, which is no guide, it's not vey much. I'm not even clear what channels there are for a member of the public to report a vehicle without the disc displayed. I cannot Imagine the police being interested. Some years ago there was some publicity given to a so-called hotline number for reporting vehicles without a disc displayed but it was quietly discontinued after a short while, presumably through a lack of callers.

Once upon a time, the display of a disc was the only way for the police / traffic wardens to know if a vehicle was taxed. It's all computerised now, along with all the other vehicle docs, so it's not needed for that.

I suspect that the SORN system, and the similar arrangement for continuous insurance cover has tidied up a lot of this - it's harder to blame it all on a bad memory. If there is abuse of this, I'll suggest a lot of it is at the dodgy end of the used-car trade. eg the type of place which uses the street outside as a parking lot/ workshop / display area, with little risk of enforcement.

[Thermostat9]

I have some misgivings about this proposal. Up till now, members of the public have played a part in 'shopping' untaxed (OK, OK, un-VED'd) vehicles on the road. With no tax disc, you won't be able to tell at a glance whether a vehicle is insured (or - more accurately - was insured at the time the VED was last renewed). Isn't this putting the public at a disadvantage?

Not quite 'at a glance' - but realy not that hard to check.

[AlaninWales]

I don't agree with Mick on this one but he illustrates why the change will never happen. Some people will lose out massively. The majority may benefit but in a smaller way. If we take the position that it is correct to tax people for the use of motor vehicles on the roads then it is only right that the taxation is proportional to use. Particularly when that tax is alleged to be a pollution tax. Obviously use of fuel is a much better estimate of actual pollution caused than engine size or co2 emissions per kg. In effect the current situation subsidises high mileage drivers at the expense of low mileage drivers. If paying the correct tax would bring about hardship it can even be argued that patterns of work whereby people drive huge distances are in part a result of this subsidy. In truth I don't really think that would be the case because the marginal increase on the price of fuel would be comparatively small and the cost would be spread over the year.

I will point out that countries with much lower population densities have similar or higher per mile costs. Contrary to tabloid opinion we don't pay significantly higher prices than much of the rest of Europe.

But thinking of who would actually be affected:
You wouldn't adversely affect people like me, mostly telecommuting with occasional long distance drives to visit customers (enough to justify a company car): Our business mileage is paid for by our employers and ultimately comes from te customers. You wouldn't adversely affect anyone who drives long distances between customers as again, tis is business mileage and paid for.
You would adversely trural casual workers, who often just about manage to run a car because they need it to get to their widely dispersed available work (a bit of strimming here, a bit of building there); these are some of the worst paid in the country, but the "comparatively small... cost would be spread over the year" would be the last straw for many.

[simonineaston]

Just to tell you the story of the last abandoned car got rid of off our very short cul-de-sac; its VED disc was dated till end of March. Now I've been a penniless student in the past, and so I regard it as a common courtesy to cash-strapped car owners to give 'em 6 weeks to 'tax' it, so I only report a vehicle if i) if the car doesn't move and ii) the last tax disc ended more than 6 weeks ago. I reported it, using both the local authority web site, as well as the govt. website and when nothing happneded I went back to the sites and found an update suggesting that the car was taxed up until October, i.e. someone had bought another 6 months VED. However, this took us into the territory described above - the duty on the car is paid up, but the disc is not displayed. One day in June the car disappeared for a couple of hours and then returned, and began another stretch of apparent abandonment in a slightly different position in our cul-de-sac...
After a few more weeks when I periodically checked the websites and got the same result - 'sorry mate, its taxed' or words to that effect, I tried another approach which was sending dated photographs of the car in all its untaxed glory, both to the council parking enforcers address and the local police station. 2 days later, it had gone for good.
With no disc displayed we were in no-man's land... it may well have had duty paid up until October making it a legal car, with the owner guilty 'only' of a different misdemenour - a failure to display... I may well have been trying to get rid of someone's pride and joy - indeed its disappearance may simply have been a coincidence - who knows?!