London - Hyde Park Cycling

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Philip Benstead
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London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby Philip Benstead » 19 Nov 2014, 8:42pm

London - Hyde Park
I am going to a meeting next week about London - Hyde Park.

I need your help to formulate a response, can you answer these questions.

1. Are there any places in Hyde Park where you feel that cyclists' speed is excessive?
a. If so, where?
2. Do you ever see cyclists using unauthorised paths in Hyde Park?
a. If so, which ones?
b. Is it likely to cause a problem?
3. What paths should cyclists be encouraged to use?
4. Which paths should they not use?
a. How could those paths be altered to discourage cycling?
5. Should there be high speed by cyclists on shared paths within Hyde Park?
a. If yes, why?
b. What should the maximum speed be on shared paths?
6. If not, why?
a. What could be used to limit speed on cycle tracks / shared paths within Hyde Park?
7. Should there be a cycling code of conduct with enforcement within Hyde Park?
a. If yes, what should be in it?
b. If not, why?
8. What physical changes should take place in relation to cycling in Hyde Park?
Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby [XAP]Bob » 20 Nov 2014, 7:52am

Hyde park is my old stomping ground, I've been round on a Boris bike recently, but my knowledge is mostly out of date.

Usually the paths are reasonably busy, and that limits all but the most antisocial user's speed. Actually I think that's the case on virtually all of the paths - I used to roller-blade around there (used it as a main form of transport around central London as a student).

I have been known to go too fast, through gaps that were too small. Fortunately on blades you are basically a pedestrian, so able to pick up the small child who strays across the gap just in front of you, spin round and put her back down without any harm being done :oops:

The Boris bike experience is much more sedate, and sociable. I'm not sure you need to stop cycles on any paths particularly, you *do* need to deal with people who are actively anti social in their use of the park in whatever respect. That might mean a 10-12mph speed limit away from the main roads through the park (i.e. jogging speed), but those "main roads" are often busy enough to make *them* inappropriate for much higher speeds... and at various times the park is sufficiently empty that 25mph wouldn't be unreasonable on the minor paths...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

james01
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby james01 » 20 Nov 2014, 10:19am

[XAP]Bob wrote:a 10-12mph speed limit away from the main roads through the park (i.e. jogging speed),...
Hmmm, some jogger. 12 mph equates to a world-class marathon time around 2hrs 10min :shock:

Good points though. I too have Borissed through the park recently. My main memory is of the number of tourists on Boris bikes and of the number of near-misses I saw.

thirdcrank
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby thirdcrank » 20 Nov 2014, 2:56pm

Perhaps Jeremiad Whine has something to contribute here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30130715

:lol:

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby [XAP]Bob » 20 Nov 2014, 3:45pm

james01 wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:a 10-12mph speed limit away from the main roads through the park (i.e. jogging speed),...
Hmmm, some jogger. 12 mph equates to a world-class marathon time around 2hrs 10min :shock:

Good points though. I too have Borissed through the park recently. My main memory is of the number of tourists on Boris bikes and of the number of near-misses I saw.


Most joggers don't go for two hours though. Many people on shorter jogs would be able to sustain that sort of pace at times - but yes it was aimed at a "quick" jogger
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

SteveHunter
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby SteveHunter » 20 Nov 2014, 4:55pm

Definitely a quick jogger, perhaps even a runner. Runners dislike the term jogger ;)

I am a runner as well as a cyclist, I have no chance of that kind of pace when I'm out running 8 mph is a fast pace for me.

Anyway back on topic. Jeremy Vine got caught speeding in Hyde Park.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30130715

Valbrona
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby Valbrona » 24 Nov 2014, 7:16pm

I have only been an occasional cyclist in Hyde Park. The park has always been busy with both pedestrians and cyclists when I have been there. What I have noticed, however, is the complete and utter lack of Park Wardens to enforce any rules regarding usage of the park.

People can dream up all the rules they want on anything they want in life, but if there are no systems of enforcement they are perhaps not worth dreaming up in the first place.
I should coco.


iviehoff
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby iviehoff » 26 Nov 2014, 3:17pm

SteveHunter wrote:Anyway back on topic. Jeremy Vine got caught speeding in Hyde Park.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30130715

It says here
https://www.royalparks.org.uk/park-mana ... te-cycling
"Always observe the speed limit of the track you are on - that may be as low as 5mph!"

I actually cycled along that section of path yesterday and didn't see any speed limit signs. It was very dark and wet at the time, so maybe if it was painted on the path I wouldn't have seen it.

"Our pathways are not suitable for fast travel. If you are in a hurry, you may wish to use another route." In my experience, most cyclists who are using the cycle paths in Hyde Park do so to get from A to B in reasonable speed and pleasantness, not a leisure pootle to see the trees. They are being unrealistic or stupid.

According to the information on Penalty Notices, the only cycling offence they say they can give a penalty notice for is cycling where you shouldn't be. So actually I think that all those policemen could have given JV was a telling off, which is indeed what he got. If the point of this speed camera stunt was to draw attention to the speed limits, what it actually does is draw attention to the fact you can't tell what the speed limit is. I don't think any of the cyclists who are going past while JV is being told off are going as slow as 5mph.

iviehoff
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby iviehoff » 26 Nov 2014, 5:49pm

Google street view works on the Hyde Park cycle ways. The pictures were taken in October 2011, and certainly at that time there were no speed limit markings in the relevant areas, nor on entry to them from local entry points, like from the Hyde Park Corner crossing route. I spoke to someone who cycles that route regularly and he has never seen any speed limit markings. Just at the moment there are some "cyclist dismount" signs around because of the funfair and high pedestrian traffic at certain times of day. But we all know what "cyclists dismount" means.

thirdcrank
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby thirdcrank » 26 Nov 2014, 6:38pm

I think the first point is that these things are governed by the Royal Park bylaws. AFAIK, those bylaws are not the same across all the Royal Parks. Bylaws are a form of secondary legislation ie authorised under primary enabling legislation. Their force is as great as any other secondary legislation (ie a lot of traffic stuff) but restricted to the relevant area.

It's no good simply saying they can't touch you for it because in some cases they can and will. I've just googled royal park bylaws (I originally typed byelaws but it corrected me) but I couldn't see anything obvious in the first three pages of hits. I'm happy to blame shortcomings in my googling but it's still not good enough. This type of thing should be prominently posted for all to see: the main benefit then would be that law-abiding people would know what they were trying to abide by. Beyond that, it avoids the quite ineffective situation of the police warning offenders who would otherwise not offend. It also avoids the situation where "offenders" dispute the authority of the police to act in the way they are doing which simply undermines their authority if they have to back off if they are not themselves conversant with the rules they purport to be enforcing. Worse still is the situation where somebody is arrested followed by a lot of wrangling about powers of arrest etc.

PS I think there would have been more "on topic" replies on this thread if the OP explicitly stated and in detail (or with a link) to what regulations are being discussed.
PPS Then cycle campaigners need to be in on the ground floor. Proposals need to be aired for discussion when they are no more than proposals, or better still, when they are only at the formulation stage.

iviehoff
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby iviehoff » 27 Nov 2014, 2:04pm

The Royal Parks Regulations seem to be statutory instruments. The following seems relevant.

From (and unamended since)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997 ... tents/made

...no person using a Park shall—
...
(4) use—
(a)any pedal cycle, or
(b)any roller skate, roller blade, skate board or other foot-propelled device except on a Park road or in an area designated and marked as being for that purpose by the Secretary of State;
....
(9) fail to comply with any direction for the regulation or control of—
(a) horses or pedal cycles, or
(b) roller skates, roller blades, skate boards or other foot-propelled devices given by a constable or by a notice exhibited by order of the Secretary of State;

From

The Royal Parks and Other Open Spaces (Amendment) etc. Regulations 2010

1. On a Park road in The Green Park, Hyde Park (other than the Serpentine Road), St James’s Park or The Regent’s Park, at a speed not exceeding 30 mph.
2. On a Park road in Bushy Park, Greenwich Park or Richmond Park, at a speed not exceeding 20 mph.
3. On the Serpentine Road in Hyde Park, and on the Park road from Kingston Gate leading to the Home Park Golf Club in Hampton Court Park, at a speed not exceeding 15 mph.
4. On a Park road (other than one mentioned in paragraphs 1, 2 or 3), at a speed not exceeding 10 mph.”.

If there are specific Hyde Park By-laws, I can't find them on the web.

So, on the park roads where cars drive, the speed limit is as for cars. On cycle paths which aren't roads, they can put signs up and you have to obey them, or a constable can instruct you and you have to do what he says.

On penalty notices, the Royal Parks website says this:
Police Officers are now able to issue Penalty Notices, which carry a £60 fine for the following offences in the Royal Parks:
• littering
• cycling outside designated cycle areas
• failing to clear up after a dog.

These powers are already available to police officers in other parks and public spaces across the capital. The introduction of the fines will help the police to deal more quickly and efficiently with these offences. The three offences are all breaches of Royal Park's Regulations.

Of course it doesn't explicitly say these are the only offences for which PCNs can be issued, but it suggests that they are the only ones. I can't find the enabling legislation for this, it doesn't reference it.
Last edited by iviehoff on 27 Nov 2014, 4:07pm, edited 1 time in total.

thirdcrank
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby thirdcrank » 27 Nov 2014, 2:40pm

The subject of speed limits for pedal cycles in Royal Parks has come up before, although AFAIK, not Hyde Park. This was as a result of a query about speeding in Richmond Park:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=57207

Among other things, it looks as though the 1997 regs were amended in 2004 and replaced in 2010.

In that thread, I linked to an earlier one where speeding in Richmond Park was raised by somebody who had received a summons.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14954

Apart from anything else, the legislation doesn't seem to be easily accessed by ordinary people (like me.)

iviehoff
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby iviehoff » 27 Nov 2014, 4:11pm

thirdcrank wrote:The subject of speed limits for pedal cycles in Royal Parks has come up before, although AFAIK, not Hyde Park. This was as a result of a query about speeding in Richmond Park:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=57207

Among other things, it looks as though the 1997 regs were amended in 2004 and replaced in 2010.

In that thread, I linked to an earlier one where speeding in Richmond Park was raised by somebody who had received a summons.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14954

Apart from anything else, the legislation doesn't seem to be easily accessed by ordinary people (like me.)


The 2010 regs was amendment legislation, not replacement, as is evident from the name of it I quoted. I quoted it above because it changed the speed limits for roads in the royal parks. There are no speed limits states in the regs for cycleways, merely an enabling power to put up signs. The earlier case related to someone exceeding the general speed limit for cars. The Regs specifically refer to a vehicle being "ridden" on the roads, so the speed limits for the park roads do apply to bicycles. Presumably no one thought bicycles might go faster than 20mph.

I agree it is a problem if park police go around enforcing speed limits which you can't see.

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mjr
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Re: London - Hyde Park Cycling

Postby mjr » 27 Nov 2014, 5:10pm

Richmond Park is a bit different, festooned with stupidity like this:
Image
At least it's obvious there that the park creepers hate cycles and apply speed limits to them.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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