Cycle proofing

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661-Pete
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby 661-Pete » 2 Dec 2014, 12:02am

I may be dumb here, but I thought "water proofing" means treating so as to keep water out; "moth proofing" means keeping moths out, etc. etc. So does "cycle proofing" mean keeping cyclists out? :roll: :twisted:
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Pete Owens
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby Pete Owens » 2 Dec 2014, 12:14am


thirdcrank
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Dec 2014, 8:14am

RickH wrote: ... There is some hope for the non-motons, on p10 (numbered p9) of the PDF you linked to there is the following
Our busiest A-Roads will become Expressways, providing improved standards of performance, with technology to manage traffic, and mile a minute speeds. Improved design standards will give greater consideration to the needs of walkers, cyclists and local communities along with the aesthetic appearance of the network.
(my emphasis)


Provided they can be persuaded to do a proper job. ....


If an existing road is made into a motorway (more accurately a special road) then there's a statutory duty to provide an alternative route for prohibited traffic including cyclists. It looks as if when making it into a motorway-in-all-but-name (an expressway) then there's just an aspiration (more accurately paying lip service) to cycle proofing the new route (ie installing shabby farcilities.)

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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby Mark1978 » 2 Dec 2014, 8:35am



Not only the barriers but I despair that a new cycle way is being built with gravel.

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mjr
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby mjr » 2 Dec 2014, 9:16am

cjchambers wrote:Cycle facilities = "Build it and they will come!"

Motor facilities = "They're all already here! DO something!"

Hardly! Most roads are far oversize when built, thanks to the National Transport Model which exaggerates car use at the expense of everything else, and more road space then encourages more car use so it fills within five years.
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Mark1978
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby Mark1978 » 2 Dec 2014, 9:30am

It certainly used to be the case that roads were built with predicted traffic growth in mind, I'm not sure they are any more at least not to the same extent.

It just annoys me that with the amount of money, time and effort they spend on building a new dual carriageway or motorway, often with new service roads alongside. If they put in 0.5% extra time and effort we could also get good quality cycle facilities out of it, but for some reason that's never done.

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mjr
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby mjr » 2 Dec 2014, 10:41am

Oh I'm sure they're still overprovided:
Highways Agency response to KLWNBC 13/01615/OM development of 1110 residential units... wrote:...Circular 02/2013 The Strategic Road Network and The Delivery of Sustainable Development. This document requires a Transport Assessment that assumes the full development traffic arrives on the network in the opening year...

That's for a development that will take years to build and sell (I think 5 years at soonest). If the full road network is provided from year 1, it'll be full with external traffic before the development is fully-occupied and then there will be demands for the next phase (1600 dwellings IIRC) to expand the roads even further. I suspect the authorities are hoping to make developers pay towards bypassing the four neighbouring villages, while the developers will argue that most of the traffic from their estates will be going towards the nearest town and not past the villages. Meanwhile, none of the authorities seems to care that even the first 1110 units will probably consume all of the nearby pathetic baby-after-an-orgy A10/A47/A149 cycleway at peak times (even with current cycle-to-work levels and the most optimistic estimate of that cycleway's capacity), plus it'll disrupt and limit the cycle routes from three of the four neighbouring villages.

I agree that the cost of providing decent cycleways at the same time as building or adapting roads would be a tiny tiny fraction of the budgets. It would probably be less than the budget change caused by things like the weather or supply price changes - that it doesn't happen is a clear illustration that the "cycle proofing" rhetoric means nothing useful yet.
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby Mark1978 » 2 Dec 2014, 11:06am

mjr wrote:I agree that the cost of providing decent cycleways at the same time as building or adapting roads would be a tiny tiny fraction of the budgets. It would probably be less than the budget change caused by things like the weather or supply price changes - that it doesn't happen is a clear illustration that the "cycle proofing" rhetoric means nothing useful yet.


Quite so, when you think of the amount of works which have to go on in relation to putting down a new road. Things like moving utilities, drainage, surrounding access etc, the list is endless, which is why it's never just a matter of smoothing out the land and whacking down some tarmac.

The cost of putting in a 2-3 metre wide cycle way down one side is trivial. To give an example of where this would be useful, just South of Barnard Castle there's a nice cycling road which heads towards the Yorkshire hills and where the Tour de France was held last year. To get there you have to do half a mile on the A66 http://goo.gl/maps/zcMTK which is basically a motorway at that point. That tiny section is enough to say no thanks I'll not bother.

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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby mjr » 2 Dec 2014, 12:00pm

That Yorkshire example is really annoying because it would be relatively cheap to fix in a minimal way: start the single-lane eastbound carriageway at the western junction (actually coned off in the Streetview!), do away with the hatched areas and set some kerbs and reflective posts down to make a protected two-way cycleway. It would not be perfect and the western junction might take an annoying length of time to cross, but it would be nicer than riding on a quasi-motorway.
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Dec 2014, 5:55pm

661-Pete wrote:I may be dumb here, but I thought "water proofing" means treating so as to keep water out; ...


They are promising £zillions for that, too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30282701

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661-Pete
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby 661-Pete » 2 Dec 2014, 9:41pm

thirdcrank wrote:
661-Pete wrote:I may be dumb here, but I thought "water proofing" means treating so as to keep water out; ...


They are promising £zillions for that, too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30282701

Oh I see! Forget putting up these monstrous concrete barriers everywhere - just buy up the world's supply of TX Direct and spray the countryside....
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

captain offensive
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby captain offensive » 3 Dec 2014, 8:32am

661-Pete wrote:I may be dumb here, but I thought "water proofing" means treating so as to keep water out; "moth proofing" means keeping moths out, etc. etc. So does "cycle proofing" mean keeping cyclists out? :roll: :twisted:


Proof actually really only means to test. Hence "the proof (test) of the pudding is in the eating" or "the exception that proves (tests) the rule"

Therefore they are just testing how these schemes effect cyclists without actually saying they will do anything to improve routes or alleviate problems.

mrjemm
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Re: Cycle proofing

Postby mrjemm » 3 Dec 2014, 9:28am

661-Pete wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
661-Pete wrote:I may be dumb here, but I thought "water proofing" means treating so as to keep water out; ...


They are promising £zillions for that, too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30282701

Oh I see! Forget putting up these monstrous concrete barriers everywhere - just buy up the world's supply of TX Direct and spray the countryside....


Flood defenses... (An old Viz Comic classic from when they were funny (to me anyway)).

Image

Howsabout looking at what's flooding, why and what's in the way... Hmmm.