CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

danhopgood
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by danhopgood »

kwackers wrote:
danhopgood wrote:which is changing the attitude of the majority of road users

No it isn't.
Motorists have been berating cyclists (and pedestrians) ever since they were allowed to drive without a flag waver in front of them.

All that's happening is their narrow motorist centric view is being allowed to reinforce itself with no feedback telling them they're wrong. Articles like this do nothing to change their perception and everything to encourage it.

........Stopping bad cycling is a laudable aim but it won't stop the rot. Education and policing of motorist behaviour will.


No, education and policing of EVERYONE on the roads - plus providing adequate and well designed infrastructure will. And vigilante cyclists with double standards for road behaviour micturate off the likes of John Armitt - who are the ones with the influence on where to spend infrastructure cash. Cyclists need to behave responsibly if they want respect.
grani
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by grani »

danhopgood wrote:
kwackers wrote:
danhopgood wrote:which is changing the attitude of the majority of road users

No it isn't.
Motorists have been berating cyclists (and pedestrians) ever since they were allowed to drive without a flag waver in front of them.

All that's happening is their narrow motorist centric view is being allowed to reinforce itself with no feedback telling them they're wrong. Articles like this do nothing to change their perception and everything to encourage it.

........Stopping bad cycling is a laudable aim but it won't stop the rot. Education and policing of motorist behaviour will.


No, education and policing of EVERYONE on the roads - plus providing adequate and well designed infrastructure will. And vigilante cyclists with double standards for road behaviour micturate off the likes of John Armitt - who are the ones with the influence on where to spend infrastructure cash. Cyclists need to behave responsibly if they want respect.

Do you honestly think that someone like Armitt with a very clear purpose and agenda would do anything differently if a few cyclists are better behaved on the road?

His role is to fight for a specific goal and will obviously step over the bodies of anyone, including cyclists', in order to get there.

It is staggeringly naive to have any other expectation from trade and lobby groups than for them to try and further their own agenda.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by [XAP]Bob »

danhopgood wrote:
kwackers wrote:
danhopgood wrote:which is changing the attitude of the majority of road users

No it isn't.
Motorists have been berating cyclists (and pedestrians) ever since they were allowed to drive without a flag waver in front of them.

All that's happening is their narrow motorist centric view is being allowed to reinforce itself with no feedback telling them they're wrong. Articles like this do nothing to change their perception and everything to encourage it.

........Stopping bad cycling is a laudable aim but it won't stop the rot. Education and policing of motorist behaviour will.


No, education and policing of EVERYONE on the roads - plus providing adequate and well designed infrastructure will. And vigilante cyclists with double standards for road behaviour micturate off the likes of John Armitt - who are the ones with the influence on where to spend infrastructure cash. Cyclists need to behave responsibly if they want respect.

Motorists should be held to the same standard.

I see motorists speeding (breaking the law), jumping red lights (breaking the law), driving on the footway (breaking the law), driving whilst on a handheld mobile phone (breaking the law), with failed lights (breaking the law), with ice covered windscreens (breaking the law), failing to recognise pinch points, or upcoming road features, failing to leave appropriate space when passing.

Oh, and in doing so killing thousands of people each year in the UK...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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kwackers
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by kwackers »

danhopgood wrote:Cyclists need to behave responsibly if they want respect.

Where respect equals not being driven at, forced off the road, physically attacked etc etc.

Yeah right. Because when I see someone do something stupid the first thing I do is take it out on someone else who is dressed the same/has the same skin colour/drives the same vehicle/wears the same hat.

As I said it's got naff all to do with how others behave and everything to do with drivers feeling of entitlement and the perceived infringement of their space by freeloaders.

But if it makes you feel better about your own experiences/behaviour then feel free to believe what you like.
danhopgood
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by danhopgood »

kwackers wrote:
danhopgood wrote:Cyclists need to behave responsibly if they want respect.

Where respect equals not being driven at, forced off the road, physically attacked etc etc.

Yeah right. Because when I see someone do something stupid the first thing I do is take it out on someone else who is dressed the same/has the same skin colour/drives the same vehicle/wears the same hat.

As I said it's got naff all to do with how others behave and everything to do with drivers feeling of entitlement and the perceived infringement of their space by freeloaders.

But if it makes you feel better about your own experiences/behaviour then feel free to believe what you like.


So reckless cyclists are OK 'cos they don't kill and injure so many people and drivers must give cyclists the utmost respect at all times regardless? That position is ridiculous.
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by Vorpal »

He didn't say that at all.

When a driver behaves badly, do you assume that driver represents all drivers? Do you think becuase one person does something idiotic that all drivers should be sent back to driving lessons?

When one cashier in a shop is having a bad day and provide poor customer service, do you forever boycott all cashiers?

There are good and bad in everything. Most drivers break the law every day.

Does that mean cyclists shouldn't behave responsibly? Of course not. But a cyclist doing something irresponsible doesn't mean that cyclists are a problem.
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kwackers
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by kwackers »

danhopgood wrote:So reckless cyclists are OK 'cos they don't kill and injure so many people and drivers must give cyclists the utmost respect at all times regardless? That position is ridiculous.

The only "respect" I want from drivers is for 'my' road space. As long as they make sure they give enough room, don't overtake in a manner which endangers my safety and don't feel the need to run me off the road and assault me then I actually don't give a monkeys what they actually think of me.
But if what you're saying is that to have a basic right to safety on the road requires other cyclists to behave impeccably then you're so far the wrong side of wrong that there really is no point in having a discussion.
danhopgood
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by danhopgood »

If we're going to improve road safety ALL road users should be behaving in accordance with the Highway Code and there should be effective enforcement for those that don't. Everyone deciding themselves what's acceptable is a disaster - and that's the current direction of travel.
kwackers
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by kwackers »

danhopgood wrote:If we're going to improve road safety ALL road users should be behaving in accordance with the Highway Code and there should be effective enforcement for those that don't. Everyone deciding themselves what's acceptable is a disaster - and that's the current direction of travel.

That's not the issue, what your saying is that ALL cyclists are fair game as long as some don't behave themselves.
Getting everyone to behave properly is a completely different goal and nothing to do with the OP.

My beef with nonsense being spouted like this is that it's precisely the ammunition that the 5% of criminally bad drivers need to justify their behaviour with respect to cyclists.
What even worse is when it's repeated by cyclists and picked up then it's practically gospel despite being wrong in its principle statement.
Despite what it claims, despite what your or my views are; from the numbers provided by those on the ground who pick up the pieces after accidents the majority of danger presented to cyclists is in fact from other road users and not from cyclists at all.
danhopgood
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by danhopgood »

kwackers wrote:That's not the issue, what your saying is that ALL cyclists are fair game as long as some don't behave themselves.
Getting everyone to behave properly is a completely different goal and nothing to do with the OP.


I'm saying the cyclists who don't obey the Highway Code -red light jumpers etc. are damaging the credibility of cyclists as a whole. And that's what the original quote from John Armitt - the title of the OP - was getting at. And it frustrates me intensely - because it's that damage that gives the motorists the excuse to treat cylists like dirt.
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by Vorpal »

danhopgood wrote:
kwackers wrote:That's not the issue, what your saying is that ALL cyclists are fair game as long as some don't behave themselves.
Getting everyone to behave properly is a completely different goal and nothing to do with the OP.


I'm saying the cyclists who don't obey the Highway Code -red light jumpers etc. are damaging the credibility of cyclists as a whole. And that's what the original quote from John Armitt - the title of the OP - was getting at. And it frustrates me intensely - because it's that damage that gives the motorists the excuse to treat cylists like dirt.

Drivers who don't obey the Highway Code - speeders, etc. are damaging the credibility of motorists as a whole.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
kwackers
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by kwackers »

danhopgood wrote:I'm saying the cyclists who don't obey the Highway Code -red light jumpers etc. are damaging the credibility of cyclists as a whole. And that's what the original quote from John Armitt - the title of the OP - was getting at. And it frustrates me intensely - because it's that damage that gives the motorists the excuse to treat cylists like dirt.

It doesn't matter whether it frustrates you or not.
Here's a question: What can you/we do about it?
The answer; not a lot...

Lets start with some basic facts: If we can't police roads and make drivers behave correctly even though they have everything to lose and are easily traceable, why on earth do you think we can police cyclists? IME the sorts of cyclists I see misbehaving probably don't even consider themselves cyclists and almost certainly don't read this (or any other) cycling forum.

Which brings us back full circle. The basic problem with the OP isn't that he's questioning 'some' cyclists behaviour but rather that he's touting nonsense that's both incorrect and designed to appeal not to cyclists but to your average pea brained motorist who thinks the cyclist in front has no right being there and as such any maneouvre they make to get past is completely justifiable - and if the cyclist comes a cropper, well "they're their own biggest danger" aren't they?

Armed with such headlines as these the tiny brain of such a motorist isn't going to bother digging any deeper but rather see it a way of justifying their behaviour a behaviour has absolutely nothing at all to do with how cyclists behave on the road and everything to do with their belief that cyclists simply don't belong on them.

Seriously if you think that if all cyclists behaved impeccably then motorists would give us respect and happily give us the space we need then you need to come off the happy pills because it won't happen.
danhopgood
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by danhopgood »

honesty wrote:Having cycled in Uppsala with its very nice segregated cycle network, good segregation is fantastic. A must if you ask me for urban environments. We took myself (first time visitor), a guy who hadnt been on a bike for 20 years, a 8 year old and a 6 year old, and their mum across the centre of a large busy city without any worries about motor traffic, and it was easy.


Great - and I'd love the same infrastructure in this country. I just think cyclists acting irresponsibly and ignoring the law of the land mean that's going to be harder to get here.
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by Vorpal »

danhopgood wrote:
honesty wrote:Having cycled in Uppsala with its very nice segregated cycle network, good segregation is fantastic. A must if you ask me for urban environments. We took myself (first time visitor), a guy who hadnt been on a bike for 20 years, a 8 year old and a 6 year old, and their mum across the centre of a large busy city without any worries about motor traffic, and it was easy.


Great - and I'd love the same infrastructure in this country. I just think cyclists acting irresponsibly and ignoring the law of the land mean that's going to be harder to get here.

Cyclists are no better in Sweden. In fact, in the cities, I think they are worse than in the UK. The confidence that motorists won't hit them makes them a bit bolder :D
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Ron
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Post by Ron »

danhopgood wrote:I'm saying the cyclists who don't obey the Highway Code -red light jumpers etc. are damaging the credibility of cyclists as a whole.


Maybe they do, but it's not worth getting concerned about.
I feel certain you are not just a cyclist, but have other interests shared by some who don't strictly follow the rules.
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