CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

danhopgood
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby danhopgood » 8 Feb 2015, 12:07pm

Ron wrote:
danhopgood wrote:I'm saying the cyclists who don't obey the Highway Code -red light jumpers etc. are damaging the credibility of cyclists as a whole.


Maybe they do, but it's not worth getting concerned about.
I feel certain you are not just a cyclist, but have other interests shared by some who don't strictly follow the rules.


Well I do think its worth getting concerned about it - there we differ. We're all more than cyclists - and use other modes of transport. As a pedestrian, I get mightily annoyed at pedestrian crossings where cyclists go through at red, weaving through pedestrians. That alone gives cyclists a bad reputation.

reohn2
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby reohn2 » 8 Feb 2015, 1:26pm

danhopgood wrote:Well I do think its worth getting concerned about it - there we differ. We're all more than cyclists - and use other modes of transport. As a pedestrian, I get mightily annoyed at pedestrian crossings where cyclists go through at red, weaving through pedestrians. That alone gives cyclists a bad reputation.


That would annoy me both as a cyclist and a pedestrian,however I don't witness it happening enough to label all cyclists a law breakers,which maybe because I don't live in London,I don't know though I suspect not.
What does annoy is being lumped in with such antisocial people and treated as if all cyclists behave in a similar fashion.
I was once shouted at for having no bell by a dog walker who was with two others(three people,three dogs all on leads)even though I'd spoken to them politely as I approached from behind on a 3m wide tarmac road through a local country park.All three had acknowledged my approach.
Her retort was ''where's your bell'' I replied that I didn't need one as I'd spoken to them and they knew I was approaching(slowly @ sub 5mph whilst I passed them),her rely to that was ''you're all the same you cyclists'' :?
At that I stopped and asked,again politely,same as what? No reply,so I thought I'd make it a little easier for her and asked ''same as Gypsies,Muslims,coloured people,homosexuals,hippies,drug dealers?''
This seemed to stun her into silence.
On another occasion I was stopped at a catering trailer buying a cup of tea,it was later afternoon and the weather was dull/cloudy,so I had my lights switched on with the bike leaned against the trailer.As I was being served,a motorcyclist pulled up,on removing his helmet the rider(a chap in in his 50's)said ''that's a first,a cyclist with lights''.I replied ''and that's a first a motocyclist not speeding,must be because he's stopped''.
His retort was that not all motorcyclists break speed limits,so I told him not all cyclist don't have lights on when needed.
He still didn't see the point so I told him to ''go figure''

The problem is one of prejudice and if you belong(purposely or not)to a perceived minority group you're fair game to be bullied whenever the larger majority (in this case motorists),sees it to fit their agenda.
The agenda of an increasing minority of motorists,is that all cyclists are nuisance freeloaders,who don't pay their dues to use 'their' roads and hold up traffic or ride dangerously through traffic or on pavements or without lights when needed,ignoring the rules of the road.
All of which isn't true for all cyclists.
The roads are open to me and everyone else who lives or visits this country,whatever their means of transport so long as it's road legal, and they acknowledge the rules of the road.
The real problem is that there isn't an effective police force to enforce the law of the land,due to slashing of their numbers and increasing politicisation of the police.
Politicisation that allows motorists to park more or less anywhere they desire,drive with faults on their vehicles such as defective tyres and lights are a very obvious examples,and yes allows idiotic cyclists to break laws with impunity mostly.
One thing's for sure though I will not allow myself to be lumped in with those kind of law breaking cyclist because I'm a cyclist as I won't be lumped in with those kinds of motorists because I'm a motorist.
It's the lack of effective policing that concerns me more than anything else and the fact that even they choose to pick on the easy option to raise revenue if the latest CTC cycling on the pavement case is anything to go by,only to have to backpedal(sorry) on the case when it's realised just how petty and stupid their prosecution was.
Due in no small measure IMO,to the helmet cam video in the ''offender's'' possession!

In the past on here,I've likened being a cyclist in the UK to being black person in the southern states or the USA in bygone a times from a prejudice perspective.
I've no reason to change the view.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

tb
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby tb » 8 Feb 2015, 10:12pm

Malaconotus wrote:
tb wrote: It's simple to ride safely around London if you have your wits about you and you accept that we share the roads with other road users.


I think that's a horribly distasteful and offensive insult to the memories of the many experienced, careful, cyclists who have been killed riding in London and elsewhere.


sorry but it's neither distasteful or offensive. Unfortunate fact of life, people die and are injured in accidents in all walks of life every day of every year.
Over 40 years cycling I too have had my share of bad cycling accidents involving cars, with broken bones and hospital visits.

Cycling in London is generally safe if you are a 'good' rider, have your wits about you and you accept that we share the roads with many other road users who are equally entitled to use the roads.

AlaninWales
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby AlaninWales » 9 Feb 2015, 9:53am

Two comments to add to rheon2's excellent points:

'Respect' is not something that has to be earned (whatever your mum said): https://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/the-most-basic-respect/

Victim blaming is easy but wrong: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/20/blaming-cyclists-road-deaths-bike-helmets-headphones

reohn2
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby reohn2 » 9 Feb 2015, 10:09am

AlaninWales wrote:
'Respect' is not something that has to be earned (whatever your mum said): https://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/the-most-basic-respect/

Victim blaming is easy but wrong: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/20/blaming-cyclists-road-deaths-bike-helmets-headphones


Spot on.
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I cycle therefore I am.

danhopgood
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby danhopgood » 9 Feb 2015, 12:44pm

AlaninWales wrote:Two comments to add to rheon2's excellent points:

'Respect' is not something that has to be earned (whatever your mum said): https://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/the-most-basic-respect/

Victim blaming is easy but wrong: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/20/blaming-cyclists-road-deaths-bike-helmets-headphones


Respect is needed on all sides. When I'm cycling - I want respect from other road users and for them to behave in accordance with the Highway Code. In exactly the same way, when I'm driving I want respect from cyclists so that I can drive safely.

Road law is clear on "blame". If a car driver runs a red light and runs over a cyclist they are mostly to blame - though the cyclist probably comes off worse. If a cyclist does the same thing, they still come off worse, but the cyclist is mostly to blame.

I say again - the attitude of the public to cycling is adversely influenced by cyclists breaking the rules. If ignoring the Highway Code by cyclists is considered widely acceptable, it increases the prevalence of "victim blaming" of cyclists that are innocent when an incident occurs. If the majority of those contributing to the forums of a leading cycling charity can't agree that cyclists need to play by the rules then there's no hope.

kwackers
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby kwackers » 9 Feb 2015, 1:20pm

danhopgood wrote:I say again - the attitude of the public to cycling is adversely influenced by cyclists breaking the rules.

You keep spouting this nonsense but have you got any evidence?

As a pedestrian I get far more flack than I do as a cyclist - is that because the driver in question once saw a pedestrian cross on a red man? (Even though said pedestrian was breaking no law).

Here's another point. If I stop at a red light (which I always do) then if you're correct can't I expect better behaviour from the vehicles behind me that saw me stopped? If so why is their behaviour often worse?

IMO as long as folk like you keep excusing bad drivers because they once saw someone jump a red light rather than tackling the problem at source; i.e. the bad drivers then we're pretty much stuffed.

If you really want to improve the mentality of drivers then it's actually quite simple. Stay off their roads. (Perhaps use the pavements? If you can find one that's devoid enough of parked cars to use).

grani
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby grani » 9 Feb 2015, 1:20pm

danhopgood wrote:If the majority of those contributing to the forums of a leading cycling charity can't agree that cyclists need to play by the rules then there's no hope.


As if anyone is arguing that cyclists should not bound by any rules.

Can you please understand that I am NOT responsible for the behavior of some anti social idiot that happened to ride a bicycle and managed to annoy you. Rant over.

It is plain for all to see that the problem of rule breaking is a wider issue than just cyclists and must be addressed mainly through policing and political initiative.

danhopgood
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby danhopgood » 9 Feb 2015, 1:51pm

"As if anyone is arguing that cyclists should not bound by any rules". Any rules? The rules I'm interested in are the Highway Code - all of it - by all road users.

We can't control the actions of individuals - but the perception of the majority (motorists) is affected by the actions of a minority (cyclists). How the majority react to that behaviour matters.

I fully accept that better enforecement would be a big help - a 25% drop in four years doesn't:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31260003

Perhaps the stance the CTC should take is a position to publicly state its opposition to reckless cycling and to campaign for better enforcement on all road users? That would send a clear signal.

grani
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby grani » 9 Feb 2015, 2:10pm

danhopgood wrote:"As if anyone is arguing that cyclists should not bound by any rules". Any rules? The rules I'm interested in are the Highway Code - all of it - by all road users.

We can't control the actions of individuals - but the perception of the majority (motorists) is affected by the actions of a minority (cyclists). How the majority react to that behaviour matters.

I fully accept that better enforecement would be a big help - a 25% drop in four years doesn't:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31260003

Perhaps the stance the CTC should take is a position to publicly state its opposition to reckless cycling and to campaign for better enforcement on all road users? That would send a clear signal.




I am starting to wonder if you are just trying to pick an argument.



Yes, in fear of stating the bleeding obvious, I meant the highway code and any laws and regulations pertaining to ones behavior in public. Maybe you would prefer a list of all relevant legal texts.



But you seem to think that I should take responsibility for anyone riding a bicycle and breaking the law. What about the burglary at the neighbors house. Is that also my fault? I mean it might be obvious to you as the offender lives in the area, is roughly the same age as me and same skin colour.



I don't know if sarcasm works with you but it is the best I can do ;-)

Edit: spelling
Last edited by grani on 9 Feb 2015, 2:33pm, edited 1 time in total.

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honesty
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby honesty » 9 Feb 2015, 2:11pm

The highway code is not rules. It is series of a guidelines that can be ignored - read this, specifically the sub-heading "Discrimination". Ok, it paraphrases some laws sometimes (those bits starting with You Must usually) but even these aren't rules, but interpretations of the rules.

Public perception of cyclist only changes in my view when that person gets on a bike (and even then, maybe not) and that's not going to happen until we make getting on a bike more attractive. Its a bit of a chicken and egg scenario, which is why projects like the new segregated routes in London are important. They may not be the greatest designs but they move the argument on.

danhopgood
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby danhopgood » 9 Feb 2015, 2:49pm

Urghh. Can't agree.

From the introduction to the Highway Code:

Many of the rules in The Highway Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’. In addition, the rule includes an abbreviated reference to the legislation which creates the offence. See an explanation of the abbreviations.

Agreed that better infrastructure would be a big help. Which is why, going back the OP, the public's - and the decision maker's views on cyclists matters.

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honesty
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby honesty » 9 Feb 2015, 3:07pm

danhopgood wrote:Urghh. Can't agree.

From the introduction to the Highway Code:

Many of the rules in The Highway Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’. In addition, the rule includes an abbreviated reference to the legislation which creates the offence. See an explanation of the abbreviations.

Yes. That's what I said.
danhopgood wrote:Agreed that better infrastructure would be a big help. Which is why, going back the OP, the public's - and the decision maker's views on cyclists matters.

We are basically just too small a group for us to matter. We are not vote winners. Until the group gets bigger this isn't really going to change that much.

kwackers
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby kwackers » 9 Feb 2015, 3:08pm

danhopgood wrote:Which is why, going back the OP, the public's - and the decision maker's views on cyclists matters.

In a nutshell, here's the public and decision makers view on bicycles:-
Modern roads are too busy for bicycles. They're fine when they can be segregated from motorised traffic but otherwise they slow down traffic and cause accidents by getting in the way. They don't work well with current traffic infrastructure and the cost of improvements isn't justified by their numbers.

merseymouth
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby merseymouth » 9 Feb 2015, 3:29pm

<moderated> Motor Traffic does not own the road, Full Stop! If drivers or motor-cyclists think the presence of lawfully riding cyclists is dangerous then they have not been properly trained in road use. Share & share alike they're there for all of us to use. So if you get stuck in traffic congestion get wise, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem! TTFN MM