CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

merseymouth
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby merseymouth » 17 Oct 2019, 4:00pm

Hi Brynpoeth, Plus one for your comment!
I would add one point? If the rot-box brigade believe, as they state, that such measure prove that they are being used as a "Cash-Cow" by HMG then fine! Consider it as Tax that they can "Avoid" rather than "Evade". Stay lawful, thereby avoid excessive taxation :lol: :lol: :lol: . MM

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Cugel
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby Cugel » 17 Oct 2019, 5:52pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi Brynpoeth, Plus one for your comment!
I would add one point? If the rot-box brigade believe, as they state, that such measure prove that they are being used as a "Cash-Cow" by HMG then fine! Consider it as Tax that they can "Avoid" rather than "Evade". Stay lawful, thereby avoid excessive taxation :lol: :lol: :lol: . MM


Bryn has dug up another dedder of a thread and panted some life back into it!

This syndrome - of law-breaking motorists claiming that the fines (few and paltry though they are) are just a "cash cow" applied by money-grabbing evil government spoilsports - is one I've often pondered. What does it signify? Surely there is one major significance, which is that these motorists don't believe the law should apply to them?

I've often heard such criminal-types expound along the lines that "laws are made for the instruction of fools and advice to wise men", meaning that they are the wise ones who may do 45 in the 20mph limit when "I know it's safe" or "because I am a very good driver" since that law is just a bit of advice that only fools will obey to the letter.

Now, does this approach work with other laws? For example, may some of us commit murder on the grounds that the law saying don't is only for guidance really and some folk need murdering by us, the wise ones who can clearly see this? How about theft? Is it alright to steal oodles of stuff from an old granny on the grounds that a wise thief has realised that the gran will soon pop orf so won't need her goods and chattels?

Now, I am a martinet when it comes to the rule of law. If it's a punishing rule, then it applies when the rules are broken. If it's a law of the "all are equal before it" kind, then even the super-great-wunnerful motorists need hadding-up for doing even 16mph in the 20mph zone if they're still going too fast for the conditions.

This makes me a small Adolf, though. And a spoilsport, which is worse if the sport being spoilt is driving loon-like when the urge takes the loon to do so.

Personally I'd confiscate their cars then send them to work at the undertakers for a 5 year spell, to which employment they would have to walk of cycle. And no driving the hearse, even slowly! But only after a first year in the gaol "with a cellmate named Bubba". Well, maybe not the last bit.

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Cugel

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The utility cyclist
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby The utility cyclist » 17 Oct 2019, 7:15pm

certain rules and 'laws' - or opinions of some people who aren't always qualified to make such 'laws' are not upheld in an equal way that is in itself unlawful. This happens quite a lot when it comes to people on bikes.
We also have some rules that should not apply to certain groups and also laws that exist but aren't applied in any meaningful way that are too weak in any case and even when employed act as no deterrent. We know what these 'rules' are, we know the effects of non implementation and and outcomes of weak 'rules'/justice systems, we know the outcome of applying rules to certain groups that should be freed of them. We know that by changing the status quo it would make society a better place in a vert big way.

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby Cugel » 18 Oct 2019, 8:36am

The utility cyclist wrote:certain rules and 'laws' - or opinions of some people who aren't always qualified to make such 'laws' are not upheld in an equal way that is in itself unlawful. This happens quite a lot when it comes to people on bikes.
We also have some rules that should not apply to certain groups and also laws that exist but aren't applied in any meaningful way that are too weak in any case and even when employed act as no deterrent. We know what these 'rules' are, we know the effects of non implementation and and outcomes of weak 'rules'/justice systems, we know the outcome of applying rules to certain groups that should be freed of them. We know that by changing the status quo it would make society a better place in a vert big way.


Are there any of these mysterious "certain rules and laws" you speak of that pertain to use of the roads? If so, can you identify them and say what the mysterious issues are with them, giving particulars?

Some road law seems perfectly clear, particularly laws concerning things like speed. Its easy for the rozzers & beaks to detect & punish, if someone is speeding, with today's technology. Why are speeders not vigorously detected and auto-prosecuted, since speeding is known to be a major factor as both a cause of so-called Road Traffic Accidents and in the amount of damage done to the victims of the speeders?

The point under discussion just now is that concerning many motorists' assumption that they are entitled to break speed limits and are therefore being persecuted if and when the law detects and punishes them. Its very easy to avoid a speeding penalty with application of correct foot-pressure to the wee go-pedal of a vehicle, perhaps with a bit of foot also to the larger slow-down pedal.

Perhaps more fundamentally we might ask: what is the evidence that speeding in a vehicle achieves anything useful for the driver? Many boffins seem to be suggesting that a traffic flow is more efficient and quicker if drivers slow down so that the flow is more even and doesn't cause jams at bottlenecks. Does it make any difference, anyway, to one's life if a journey takes 30 minutes at a dangerous speed or 36 minutes at a safer speed? It seems unlikely in all cases except that of the ambulance bearing, say, the victim of an RTA desperately in need of a surgeon after a speeder has mangled someone's body to "save" five minutes for ......?

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby ANTONISH » 18 Oct 2019, 9:41am

Interesting Cudgel,
Some years ago, maybe in the 70's there was an experiment on how much time difference would be obtained at different speeds.
I think the start point was in Germany and the end in Italy.
One driver was instructed to drive with care but allowed to drive up to the speed limit.
The other was instructed to drive as fast as possible while keeping to the speed limit.
Their passengers recorded possible accident situations and the second driver encountered many more.
The time difference was small - about 1hour.
The conclusion was that it wasn't possible to travel much faster than the average traffic speed.

I had this confirmed when setting off to drive across London into Kent at the same time as my son, who often complained about the pedestrian pace of my driving - he was surprised to find that I arrived only a few minutes behind him.

Over the years I've observed numerous lunatic overtakes only to gain the lunatic a few seconds.

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby mjr » 18 Oct 2019, 9:51am

Cugel wrote:Why are speeders not vigorously detected and auto-prosecuted, since speeding is known to be a major factor as both a cause of so-called Road Traffic Accidents and in the amount of damage done to the victims of the speeders?

Because our legislators have seemed to be variously spineless or pandering to bad motorists (Pickles, Cameron...) or traffic offenders themselves (Grayling, Huhn).

Perhaps more fundamentally we might ask: what is the evidence that speeding in a vehicle achieves anything useful for the driver? Many boffins seem to be suggesting that a traffic flow is more efficient and quicker if drivers slow down so that the flow is more even and doesn't cause jams at bottlenecks. Does it make any difference, anyway, to one's life if a journey takes 30 minutes at a dangerous speed or 36 minutes at a safer speed?

The problem is that it is a classic tragedy of the commons: if everyone else obeys the law, then the lawbreaker gains an advantage (often small!) by speeding, because the jams they cause are behind them. This rarely works in practice because there is often another lawbreaker in front of them, but it feels like it does because offenders rarely suffer the conequences of their own action.

One possible solution would be to increase detection and introduce time penalties rather than fines. How about lengthening the red light phase for each speeder detected on that section and displaying their plate numbers at the red light alongside the extra time they caused so they know they defeated themselves? One difficulty might be cyclists encouraging speeding in order to give them more time at lights but I'm not sure how they would.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby The utility cyclist » 18 Oct 2019, 4:52pm

Cugel wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:certain rules and 'laws' - or opinions of some people who aren't always qualified to make such 'laws' are not upheld in an equal way that is in itself unlawful. This happens quite a lot when it comes to people on bikes.
We also have some rules that should not apply to certain groups and also laws that exist but aren't applied in any meaningful way that are too weak in any case and even when employed act as no deterrent. We know what these 'rules' are, we know the effects of non implementation and and outcomes of weak 'rules'/justice systems, we know the outcome of applying rules to certain groups that should be freed of them. We know that by changing the status quo it would make society a better place in a vert big way.


Are there any of these mysterious "certain rules and laws" you speak of that pertain to use of the roads? If so, can you identify them and say what the mysterious issues are with them, giving particulars?

Some road law seems perfectly clear, particularly laws concerning things like speed. Its easy for the rozzers & beaks to detect & punish, if someone is speeding, with today's technology. Why are speeders not vigorously detected and auto-prosecuted, since speeding is known to be a major factor as both a cause of so-called Road Traffic Accidents and in the amount of damage done to the victims of the speeders?

The point under discussion just now is that concerning many motorists' assumption that they are entitled to break speed limits and are therefore being persecuted if and when the law detects and punishes them. Its very easy to avoid a speeding penalty with application of correct foot-pressure to the wee go-pedal of a vehicle, perhaps with a bit of foot also to the larger slow-down pedal.

Perhaps more fundamentally we might ask: what is the evidence that speeding in a vehicle achieves anything useful for the driver? Many boffins seem to be suggesting that a traffic flow is more efficient and quicker if drivers slow down so that the flow is more even and doesn't cause jams at bottlenecks. Does it make any difference, anyway, to one's life if a journey takes 30 minutes at a dangerous speed or 36 minutes at a safer speed? It seems unlikely in all cases except that of the ambulance bearing, say, the victim of an RTA desperately in need of a surgeon after a speeder has mangled someone's body to "save" five minutes for ......?

Cugel

Given we are talking about bicycles they clearly pertain to using the road but also elsewhere not on the highway, if you don't know what these are then you're either not someone who rides a bike or cares about cycling equality and/or haven't been reading the forum here or pretty much any other cycling forum either online or debates with other people who cycle regularly anytime since long before I was born, the problems have existed for a long, long time, work it out for yourself.

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby reohn2 » 18 Oct 2019, 5:24pm

I must be danger to myself,twice this week I've endangered myself:-
Incident 1)
Tuesday,wide straight country road,I'm riding 1m from the kerb with three cars approaching in the opposite direction,when I'm aware throught the RVM of Mr ****inablackMerc about 30 to 50cm off my rear wheel,opposing traffic clears and he begins his overtake,less than 30cm from my elbow,so close in fact that I feel the need to fend of his vehicle with my hand.
He slows winds down the window and begins a tiraid of "don't touch my car or I'll report you to the police" to which,I invite him to do so and stop so I can give him my details,he stops but then roars off :?

Incident 2)
Another wide straight road,built up area,50m from a spot Island/roundabout,Mrs TwatinagreyQashqia comes along side with her left indicator flashing,no problem I think,she'll be past me by the time we get there.Then my idiot meter kicks in as I spot the left turn before the r/about,sure enough she begins to turn in with me level with her rear wheel.I hit the brakes and let her go not taking me with her,and leaving her in no doubt of my feelings about her poor driving skills as I ride past her rearbumper :?

These incidents are not uncommon when I'm cycling,in fact so common it's rare I don't have an incident in one form or another

I'm a dangerous outlaw Iam :roll:
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Pete Owens
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby Pete Owens » 18 Oct 2019, 5:27pm

Cugel wrote:Now, I am a martinet when it comes to the rule of law. If it's a punishing rule, then it applies when the rules are broken. If it's a law of the "all are equal before it" kind, then even the super-great-wunnerful motorists need hadding-up for doing even 16mph in the 20mph zone if they're still going too fast for the conditions.

In that case I hope your pedal reflectors are all in order.

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby Cugel » 18 Oct 2019, 5:40pm

Pete Owens wrote:
Cugel wrote:Now, I am a martinet when it comes to the rule of law. If it's a punishing rule, then it applies when the rules are broken. If it's a law of the "all are equal before it" kind, then even the super-great-wunnerful motorists need hadding-up for doing even 16mph in the 20mph zone if they're still going too fast for the conditions.

In that case I hope your pedal reflectors are all in order.


The SPDs all have reflective tape stuck on them, thenk yew. :-) Also, my shoe heels and bibtight ankles have reflection bits built in. On the other hand, I rarely ride at night.

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby Pete Owens » 24 Oct 2019, 4:28pm

Cugel wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:
Cugel wrote:Now, I am a martinet when it comes to the rule of law. If it's a punishing rule, then it applies when the rules are broken. If it's a law of the "all are equal before it" kind, then even the super-great-wunnerful motorists need hadding-up for doing even 16mph in the 20mph zone if they're still going too fast for the conditions.

In that case I hope your pedal reflectors are all in order.


The SPDs all have reflective tape stuck on them, thenk yew. :-) Also, my shoe heels and bibtight ankles have reflection bits built in. On the other hand, I rarely ride at night.


It terms of the law that doesn't count. You are required to have proper pedal reflectors conforming to BS6102/2.

While your reflective tape may apply the loose spirit of the law, it doesn't conform to the letter (in the same way that LED lights didn't before the law was changed).

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby visionset » 7 Nov 2019, 10:31am

I've ridden lots of France, Italy, Spain, Switzerland and a recent ride round Amsterdam. Of all of that I can honestly say that infrastructure has almost nothing to do with feeling at ease on the bike. I can't speak for the inexperienced, but for me it is 99% to do with driver attitude. And that is on another planet in the above countries. Yes even Italy.

Injecting a load of infrastructure, however good it is, will not make the UK a nice place to ride or walk, or a get yourself from A - B by whatever means!
Stop building roads period
Improve what there is.
Construct policy that recognises driving is a privilege.
Change driver attitude with a stronger arm of the law.
Improve and make public transport affordable.
Do all of that FIRST
Any infrastructure should be added slowly, with huge consideration, planning, vision and ambition.

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby mjr » 7 Nov 2019, 10:57am

visionset wrote:I've ridden lots of France, Italy, Spain, Switzerland and a recent ride round Amsterdam. Of all of that I can honestly say that infrastructure has almost nothing to do with feeling at ease on the bike. I can't speak for the inexperienced, but for me it is 99% to do with driver attitude. And that is on another planet in the above countries. Yes even Italy.

You can't speak for the experienced either! Nor can I but - while driver attitude is better in some places, worse in others - for me, it's always nicer to be on our own roads where motorists are allowed to go lethally fast.

It doesn't solve everything, but infrastructure changes are part of the solution, even if it's just 20mph, bollards and junction improvements. Without it, there will never be the numbers of cyclists to support other measures against the whining motoring lobby, unless there is some big disturbance like a really long oil crisis.
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby visionset » 7 Nov 2019, 11:35am

mjr wrote:It doesn't solve everything, but infrastructure changes are part of the solution, even if it's just 20mph, bollards and junction improvements. Without it, there will never be the numbers of cyclists to support other measures against the whining motoring lobby, unless there is some big disturbance like a really long oil crisis.


I meant cycling specific infra. Totally support the kind of stuff you mention. In fact I'm trying to gather some momentum on 20 zone push for my local streets.

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby Vorpal » 7 Nov 2019, 12:23pm

visionset wrote:
mjr wrote:It doesn't solve everything, but infrastructure changes are part of the solution, even if it's just 20mph, bollards and junction improvements. Without it, there will never be the numbers of cyclists to support other measures against the whining motoring lobby, unless there is some big disturbance like a really long oil crisis.


I meant cycling specific infra. Totally support the kind of stuff you mention. In fact I'm trying to gather some momentum on 20 zone push for my local streets.

IMO, much of the problem with design in the UK is that cycling infrastructure is seen as something specific to cyclists. Cycling infrastructure *has* to be the whole system in order to be effective. A network of quiet streets and segregated tracks, cycle parking, integration with public transport, accomodation for pedal cycles of all sorts, with trailers and child seats, etc.

That's what the Dutch and Danes do, and that's what the UK needs to do. Honestly, if they got the rest of it right, even without segregated infrastructure, I bet that many places in the UK would see lots more folks on pedal cycles than today.
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