CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

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mjr
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby mjr » 7 Nov 2019, 1:51pm

20mph, bollards and improved junction designs are as cycling specific as anything else - it's mainly cyclists and walkers that want them, sometimes buses if the bollards allow them through. The only completely cycling specific infra is probably something like a cycling bridge or tunnel that other users are banned from, but I know of none in the UK (the UK always allow walkers AFAIK which allows wheelchairs and scooters to use it) and only remember one in NL which had a parallel ramped bridge for walkers.
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visionset
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby visionset » 7 Nov 2019, 2:03pm

mjr wrote:20mph, bollards and improved junction designs are as cycling specific as anything else - it's mainly cyclists and walkers that want them, sometimes buses if the bollards allow them through. The only completely cycling specific infra is probably something like a cycling bridge or tunnel that other users are banned from, but I know of none in the UK (the UK always allow walkers AFAIK which allows wheelchairs and scooters to use it) and only remember one in NL which had a parallel ramped bridge for walkers.


I would lump 20 zones into, pleasant environment in which to live rather than for any particular transport reasons. Being purely selfish, I want it where I live, cos I'm sick of people treating area as a race track. Not that it'll make a bit of difference. Though there is such a thing as community assisted policing, so I'll probably end up being the sad chap in chair with a speed gun.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby The utility cyclist » 7 Nov 2019, 8:05pm

visionset wrote:I've ridden lots of France, Italy, Spain, Switzerland and a recent ride round Amsterdam. Of all of that I can honestly say that infrastructure has almost nothing to do with feeling at ease on the bike. I can't speak for the inexperienced, but for me it is 99% to do with driver attitude. And that is on another planet in the above countries. Yes even Italy.

Injecting a load of infrastructure, however good it is, will not make the UK a nice place to ride or walk, or a get yourself from A - B by whatever means!
Stop building roads period
Improve what there is.
Construct policy that recognises driving is a privilege.
Change driver attitude with a stronger arm of the law.
Improve and make public transport affordable.
Do all of that FIRST
Any infrastructure should be added slowly, with huge consideration, planning, vision and ambition.

Agree, but we need to take some of the existing roads away from motorists completely, particularly in the built environment, this means not having to build crappy 'infra', take back what already exists, forcing motorists to go the long way round or abandon their vehicles altogether, this is the only effective AND importantly safe way to get anywhere near mass cycling for short journeys/around conurbations in the UK.

Having police actually enforce the law and judges not to act with such indifference when it comes to applying the correct tarifs or again ignoring the law whilst simultaneously applying a different set of rules for people on bikes, just as police do. That is one of the biggest things. Motorist who feel no jeopardy from errant driving will continue to do as they like. Speeds can be restricted with fully active limiters using speed limit signs/Satellites, also reducing the speed limits everywhere bar the motorways and major trunks with the restricting limiters this would improve safety massively even if drivers had a pee poor attitude.

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby brooksby » 8 Nov 2019, 3:08pm

visionset wrote:I've ridden lots of France, Italy, Spain, Switzerland and a recent ride round Amsterdam. Of all of that I can honestly say that infrastructure has almost nothing to do with feeling at ease on the bike. I can't speak for the inexperienced, but for me it is 99% to do with driver attitude. And that is on another planet in the above countries. Yes even Italy.

Injecting a load of infrastructure, however good it is, will not make the UK a nice place to ride or walk, or a get yourself from A - B by whatever means!
Stop building roads period
Improve what there is.
Construct policy that recognises driving is a privilege.
Change driver attitude with a stronger arm of the law.
Improve and make public transport affordable.
Do all of that FIRST
Any infrastructure should be added slowly, with huge consideration, planning, vision and ambition.


On the 'building roads' thing, and its a bit OT, but I've never understood why building new roads is always something that Govt can afford and which is A Good Thing according to Anyone With Common Sense, and yet apparently we have like a £12billion backlog of repairs on the roads we already have... Wouldn't it make far more sense to start repairing and making sure we can continue to repair the roads we have before we start building new ones??

visionset
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby visionset » 8 Nov 2019, 3:40pm

brooksby wrote:On the 'building roads' thing, and its a bit OT, but I've never understood why building new roads is always something that Govt can afford and which is A Good Thing according to Anyone With Common Sense, and yet apparently we have like a £12billion backlog of repairs on the roads we already have... Wouldn't it make far more sense to start repairing and making sure we can continue to repair the roads we have before we start building new ones??


Sure, and by the same token, cycle infrastructure, which appears and is instantly a death trap, since nobody considered that roads are self cleaning and cycle paths aren't. Amongst a host of other well documented issues.

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby grufty » 30 Nov 2019, 3:12pm

Had an interesting encounter on a narrow bridge with a very young driver this morning. I was told in no uncertain terms that cyclists aren't allowed on the road when there are cars around!
Followed an occasion earlier this week when I was cycling along a quiet road, there was a young man just in front of me on a mountain bike (helmet, body armour). He only used the road when there was no footpath alongside, there were more pedestrians around than cars.
I know we want our kids to be safe, but is there a generation growing up that thinks bikes belong only on footpaths/tracks and not on roads?

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby mjr » 10 Dec 2019, 8:59am

visionset wrote:Sure, and by the same token, cycle infrastructure, which appears and is instantly a death trap, since nobody considered that roads are self cleaning and cycle paths aren't.

Calling roads "self cleaning" ignores the great efforts of council workers to clean up flytips and debris. Some councils do similar for cycleways but most don't. This is a political choice to [rude word removed] cycling. Vote for cycling on Thursday and maybe we can start to change it.
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TrevA
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby TrevA » 10 Dec 2019, 10:03am

mjr wrote:
visionset wrote:Sure, and by the same token, cycle infrastructure, which appears and is instantly a death trap, since nobody considered that roads are self cleaning and cycle paths aren't.

Calling roads "self cleaning" ignores the great efforts of council workers to clean up flytips and debris. Some councils do similar for cycleways but most don't. This is a political choice to <i>[rude word removed]</i> cycling. Vote for cycling on Thursday and maybe we can start to change it.


Roads aren’t self-cleaning but car tyres do a good job of clearing away small stones and even broken glass and debris. It just gets carried away in the treads. Unfortunately, car tyres also seem to flick some of the debris on to the adjoining cycle path - locally the Lowdham to Gunthorpe path is an example. We have also seen a road recently closed to traffic (Trent Lane, East Bridgford) that is now covered in leaves, twigs and gravel caused by recent flooding. If the road was still open to cars, the tyres would have cleared all this rubbish away.

There’s no point in councils building ca cycle facility and then not maintaining it by regular sweeping, etc.
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby brynpoeth » 10 Dec 2019, 10:24am

I thought roads and cycleways were built with a slight camber so water risnses a lot of the muck away
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby mattheus » 10 Dec 2019, 10:29am

brynpoeth wrote:I thought roads and cycleways were built with a slight camber so water risnses a lot of the muck away

... which is another reason that having cycle-lanes in the gutter is crap. (and the "pass-throughs" at traffic calming are often nearly unusable most of the year)

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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby mjr » 10 Dec 2019, 11:48am

mattheus wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:I thought roads and cycleways were built with a slight camber so water risnses a lot of the muck away

... which is another reason that having cycle-lanes in the gutter is crap. (and the "pass-throughs" at traffic calming are often nearly unusable most of the year)

It depends how they are built. I know some pass-throughs which work well most of the time but they were built wide enough for a mini-sweeper to fit through. It's a political decision not to impose binding design standards that require all to be built that way (among other basics) unless there's a rare exception permitted.

Cars mostly only clear their wheel tracks. They also wear the road surface away far faster if there is much debris on them - I'd say more than half of the debris flicked onto roadside cycleways here is actually damaged road surface - so most highways departments still send sweepers round. They could build cycleways big enough for sweepers, buy small sweepers, or whatever, but Whitehall currently requires none of it, while loudly proclaiming support for active travel and pollution reduction. Support in words only for far too long.
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Re: CYCLISTS ARE OWN BIGGEST DANGER

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 11 Dec 2019, 9:13pm

mjr wrote:
visionset wrote:Sure, and by the same token, cycle infrastructure, which appears and is instantly a death trap, since nobody considered that roads are self cleaning and cycle paths aren't.

Calling roads "self cleaning" ignores the great efforts of council workers to clean up flytips and debris. Some councils do similar for cycleways but most don't. This is a political choice to <i>[rude word removed]</i> cycling. Vote for cycling on Thursday and maybe we can start to change it.


Not round here, the main carriageway is largely clear of leaf fall, but the cycle lanes are mostly covered with months old compressed decaying leaf mass which is slippery and dirty and holds the water and any other dirt too. My council only routinely clean the touristy areas, the rest of the city is left to 'self clean' We're really lucky not to have had the rainfall that other areas have had, as so many of the drains are blocked and a really heavy downpour would result in houses being flashflooded. But of course the cost of dumping and replacing someone's possessions and house furniture etc isn't as great as cleaning the highway once a week is it :roll: