£100M going toward driverless research..so there is money

snibgo
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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby snibgo » 23 Mar 2015, 12:41am

I've heard that radar can see through fog, so the robots will be zooming along in (human) non-visible conditions. The robots will be held back by weakly humans. Ha!

But even if driverless cars are the next best thing, why should taxpayers fund the development? Are manufacturers so cash-strapped that they can't afford the R&D? Last I heard, the taxpayers were just as hard up.

Sure, £100m isn't a huge amount. Just a couple of quid from each of us. But I've seen nothing that convinces me we should pay.

Pete Owens
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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby Pete Owens » 23 Mar 2015, 1:09am

bovlomov wrote:
pwa wrote:... so I think more efficient cars are worth having. And if they make the roads safer for cyclists they will indirectly boost the appeal of cycling for many people.


Would any increases in safety and efficiency not be offset by demands for increased speed? That's usually how humans do things.


Which is exactly why getting robots to take over the driving from humans would be such a positive step.

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bovlomov
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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby bovlomov » 23 Mar 2015, 7:42am

Pete Owens wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Would any increases in safety and efficiency not be offset by demands for increased speed? That's usually how humans do things.


Which is exactly why getting robots to take over the driving from humans would be such a positive step.

As long as robots are also the legislators.

kwackers
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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby kwackers » 23 Mar 2015, 8:04am

snibgo wrote:Sure, £100m isn't a huge amount. Just a couple of quid from each of us. But I've seen nothing that convinces me we should pay.

I'm just guessing here but I'd imagine the government seeing the way the wind is blowing wants us as a country in 'at the ground floor' rather than buying all the tech and expertise of others in 10 years time.
Happens a lot in all sorts of industries. As you say it's not a lot but if the industry takes off then a small difference now would pay huge dividends several years down the line.

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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby sprocketsanjay » 23 Mar 2015, 8:52am

A lot of posts here think that driverless cars will use the current roads. That is not the case. The implementations being planned are for short journeys on pre built infrastructure away from 'normal' human driven cars.

So similar to Dutch style cycle paths but purely for driverless ucars.

In Milton Keynes this will be from the rail station to the shopping mall.

The infrastructure development comes from the government The same government that cannot afford widespread cycling infrastructure etc.

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mjr
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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby mjr » 23 Mar 2015, 9:36am

sprocketsanjay wrote:A lot of posts here think that driverless cars will use the current roads. That is not the case. The implementations being planned are for short journeys on pre built infrastructure away from 'normal' human driven cars.

So similar to Dutch style cycle paths but purely for driverless ucars.

In Milton Keynes this will be from the rail station to the shopping mall.

The infrastructure development comes from the government The same government that cannot afford widespread cycling infrastructure etc.

It's worse than that: they're putting the driverless cars on some of Milton Keynes's widespread cycling infrastructure between the rail station and the centre:mk shopping mall, aren't they? The grey paths with black bollards that are the same as the redways with yellow bollards in the rest of the city. IIRC, there are half a dozen of them, one each side of the three Boulevards up that slope:
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sprocketsanjay
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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby sprocketsanjay » 23 Mar 2015, 9:55am

Yes and no. There isn't much in the way of cycling infrastructure betweek rail stn and mall but yes what there is they're planning to use and modify. Cyclists will share with pedestrians and driverless cars. The money will be available to build separate infrastucture for these things under more more more politics. Cycling isn't profitable as motorised transport and there it hits a wall under current political thinking.

All the posts of it will make roads safer are i think wishful. Much as I would like them to be true.

In fact 20mph zones are making roads way safer. Now cars are doing 30mph and very rarely more than that on them. It feels so much better cycling on them.

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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby mjr » 23 Mar 2015, 10:19am

sprocketsanjay wrote:Cycling isn't profitable as motorised transport and there it hits a wall under current political thinking.

Cycling has a far higher benefit-to-cost ratio than most motorised transport schemes. 5.5 to 1 for recent nationally-funded schemes, according to http://road.cc/content/news/134759-bene ... t-says-dft - Anyone know the ratio for past driverless cars funding?
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pwa
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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby pwa » 23 Mar 2015, 10:21am

A driverless car in a 20mph zone would do 20mph max. That would be an improvement. A driverless car would pass a cyclist leaving enough room. That would also be an improvement. For me, the sooner we take humans away from the controls the better.

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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby beardy » 23 Mar 2015, 10:25am

A driverless car in a 20mph zone would do 20mph max


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28851996

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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby sprocketsanjay » 23 Mar 2015, 10:28am

Benefit to cost ratio doesn't come into the political dogma thinking process. If it did then driverless car infrastructure wouldn't get a look in. Cycling infrastructure would be way up the agenda.

Hence it's not about rationale it's about political and economic dogma. You know, the kind that says the solution to a debt fuelled economy is more debt and then you get a PhD in economics for writing it up.

You don't need to convince me of the economic benefits and especially to my children's generation for low CO2 transport systems. The only two I know are public transport and cycling. Driverless cars might one day become that but it would be far far cheaper to have frequent subsidised mini buses running using current infrastructure then build a whole new shebang.

pwa
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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby pwa » 23 Mar 2015, 10:40am

The public transport debate plays differently if you live outside a major city. Where I live the buses come once an hour (peak time) and do not necessarily go the way you want to go. And the buses are rarely even half full. For us the choice is between bike and car. The car we have was chosen for fuel efficiency, and we use it sparingly. That is the best you can do if you don't live in a major conurbation.

We are stuck with cars for decades to come. If they can be made in a better way I welcome it.

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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby mjr » 23 Mar 2015, 11:10am

Oh I think the bus debate plays similarly in MK. The city was built with a grid of near-motorways spaced 1km apart as about the second constraint imposed after its boundaries and existing road/rail/waterways. That should be ideal for a public transport network, with few users needing to walk more than a few hundred metres to stops by every other intersection and buses able to do roughly 2km at relatively high speeds except when serving major trip attractors like the city centre and larger district centres.

Yet, look at the OSM transport mapping: http://osm.org/go/eut9~zt--?layers=T - I know it's incomplete, but what you can see is basically bonkers, like it was when I travelled around MK a lot decades ago and I think it's still the same from my occasional visits back there. One good think is a trunk running roughly NE from the central rail station through the city centre, but even so, still some buses are running parallel along Childs Way just to the south of it. Elsewhere, particularly in the SWish bit, buses are wiggling around the estate roads like drunken bees - I guess that's in the hope of reminding people they're there and picking up a few passengers, but the low speeds and weaving around in residential areas must reduce their attractiveness as a mode of transport. For many areas, there's probably a half-decent service to the city centre, but getting to other obvious places like the hospital or your second-nearest larger centre probably means a trip all the way into the city and back out.

But besides a few contracted services like park-and-ride, MK's people and government can't tell Arriva and other private operators to provide an integrated transport system, can they?

At least once they realised that a transport network can't just wiggle around district centres, the cycleways were improved by the addition of grid routes, although those have their problems. If only we would do similar for MK's buses.
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RickH
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Re: £100M going toward driverless research..so there is mone

Postby RickH » 23 Mar 2015, 12:19pm

Google seem to be doing all right with their research on US streets
Google's retrofitted self-drive cars have undergone extensive testing, racking up more than 700,000 miles on the road, and in 2013 were given to one hundred employees to test.

Mr Urmson shared with the Ted audience some of the more unusual traffic situations that the fleet of Google self-drive cars had encountered, including a child driving a toy car in the road and a woman in an electric wheelchair chasing a duck.

"There is nowhere in the handbook about how to deal with that situation," he said.

But, he added, the car slowed down and reacted appropriately in each case.

(BBC article on TED 2015 conference talk - I don't know if it will become freely available, the main conferences tend to be pay per view afterwards)

I was quite impressed by Google's bike avoidance towards the end of this video

and a computer won't get impatient! :)

Rick.