High Performance Cars

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
kwackers
Posts: 15089
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 21 Nov 2020, 6:36pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:And you think full automation is the solution.
And I don't.

Doesn't need to be full, but even just applying the brakes would be more than half the population can manage - horn first, brake when it's too late.
PDQ Mobile wrote:It may be that such systems can be made to work in the future,(although I personally doubt it) but they aren't here yet.

Except they are and already outperform people in terms of KSI's per mile travelled.
How do you square that circle?

PDQ Mobile wrote:This million (I'll take your word) - in rural Africa, India, Asia, these people can hardly afford more than the basic necessities, the idea that they will all soon be in fully automated and therefore safe vehicles is absurd.

Africa and all the other people who can't afford stuff is where most of our old vehicles end up.

PDQ Mobile wrote:You have stated that your own new hi-tech buggy has serious shortcomings in regard of reliability of its "safety features.

"Serious"?
Serious implies dangerous, where did I say it was dangerous?
You also seemed to equate the system in my car with that in a far more sophisticated car when they're not even remotely comparable nor do they pretend to be.
FWIW, automatic braking, adaptive cruise control, lane keeping, cross radar etc etc in my car all work perfectly well and I've no doubt at a population level they enhance safety - not everyone is of your driving brilliance.

PDQ Mobile wrote:Additionally a great many modern vehicles already have "safety features" UBS is ubiquitous.
Yet your much maligned Morris Minor had only reasonable brakes. What happened? Drivers of the same left bigger spaces.

How many people were killed and injured when Moggies ruled the roads?

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3869
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Nov 2020, 6:56pm

Jdsk wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:And you think full automation is the solution.
And I don't.
It may be that such systems can be made to work in the future,(although I personally doubt it) but they aren't here yet.

I don't think that full automation is the solution. I do think that there will be a time when extensive automation will make motor vehicles safer for other road users than human drivers without assistance. (And I suspect that we may have already reached it, but the studies haven't been done.) And it's achievable.

PDQ Mobile wrote:Yet your much maligned Morris Minor had only reasonable brakes. What happened? Drivers of the same left bigger spaces.

One of the things that happened was much higher rates of "accidents", deaths and injuries.

PDQ Mobile wrote:And you think full automation is the solution.
More could be done with better education and training, for sure.

The evidence of efficacy is good for GDL but not for driver education. But even where the evidence is good you have to take feasibility into account. I think that GDL is achievable.

But most importantly the required interventions can be synergistic. We don't have to set one against another.

Jonathan

I am aware that since the days of the Minor road fatalities have reduced by around 2/3rds.
However there have been many changes in those intervening years.
Vast passenger cell and crumple zone improvements. The mandatory wearing of seat belts. Better tyres.
And others.
There are also far more motorways replacing the old A road network. Three lanes- the middle one for overtaking in either direction!

So while better vehicle systems undoubtedly play a role I am not sure that systems like UBS are all that significant to casualty stats on their own.
Indeed vehicle defects are invoked in only a tiny proportion of accidents overall.

I suppose UBS are a help to the inattentive.
For real emergencies just really good brakes are still ok. IMV.

I do not know what "GDL" is.
A search brings only confusion and amusement(!)but little enlightenment.

One problem is that the really dangerous driver is not made any less (or only marginally so) dangerous by such "safety" systems.
And in spite of optimism about full automation, ie. driverless, that remains firmly in the realms of fantasy on today's roads. IMV

Jdsk
Posts: 4084
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Jdsk » 21 Nov 2020, 7:05pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:I am aware that since the days of the Minor road fatalities have reduced by around 2/3rds.
However there have been many changes in those intervening years.
Vast passenger cell and crumple zone improvements. The mandatory wearing of seat belts. Better tyres.
And others.
There are also far more motorways replacing the old A road network. Three lanes- the middle one for overtaking in either direction!

Yes, lots of changes and I expect that many have contributed to saving lives and reducing injuries. But I'm wary of anything that suggests that the Good Old Days were anything other than downright dangerous.

PDQ Mobile wrote:I do not know what "GDL" is.
A search brings only confusion and amusement(!)but little enlightenment.

Graduated Driver Licensing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduated ... _licensing

But what's UBS? I only know that in vehicles for Yamaha's linkage system.
https://global.yamaha-motor.com/business/mc/mc-tech/standard-technology/ubs.html

ABS?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

Jonathan

thirdcrank
Posts: 30161
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Nov 2020, 7:35pm

Anybody who thinks a robot must be like C3PO is missing the plot: autonomous vehicles won't ape human drivers so assuming they can't do that as well as real humans and assuming they must do so to work is self-delusion.

The word "system" has been used quite a lot in this thread with different meanings, but an autonomous vehicle transport system won't depend on some sort of intelligence built into vehicles. IMO GPS is the future and vehicles will respond to it.

Many if not all the reservations people have seem to involve how these vehicles will respond to other road users. First, it seems to me that others will be largely excluded by different types of farcilities. (A huge motive here to install separate cycle routes.)

I've wondered why anybody would shell out for an expensive autonomous and law-abiding car if it was going to be given the run-around by every boy-racer in a clapped out banger, but that misses the point. In a controlled environment, there's little to stop autonomous vehicles travelling at any speed ie speed limits are for humans. I fancy that that will be their USP. And the legacy technology will be taxed and restricted off the road.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3869
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Nov 2020, 8:57pm

Jdsk wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:I am aware that since the days of the Minor road fatalities have reduced by around 2/3rds.
However there have been many changes in those intervening years.
Vast passenger cell and crumple zone improvements. The mandatory wearing of seat belts. Better tyres.
And others.
There are also far more motorways replacing the old A road network. Three lanes- the middle one for overtaking in either direction!

Yes, lots of changes and I expect that many have contributed to saving lives and reducing injuries. But I'm wary of anything that suggests that the Good Old Days were anything other than downright dangerous.

PDQ Mobile wrote:I do not know what "GDL" is.
A search brings only confusion and amusement(!)but little enlightenment.

Graduated Driver Licensing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduated ... _licensing

But what's UBS? I only know that in vehicles for Yamaha's linkage system.
https://global.yamaha-motor.com/business/mc/mc-tech/standard-technology/ubs.html

ABS?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

Jonathan


Well I dunno about just being so wary of the good old days. I certainly remember more politeness in society than now.
I am by contrast wary of brave new world.
And unnecessary complexity.
But we're all different and I shall go my own way on this one.
And you no doubt yours.

As I stated upthread defective vehicle faults are are tiny fraction of the causes of serious accidents.


UBS!
Ah you see how ill educated and behind the (un)happy times I am!
I think it is really called ABS! But I could be wrong.

However useless does start with a U!

Ps.
I remain deeply fond of Minors.
A high performance car.
I guess it's a bond that happens when you sleep in them a fair bit!
Never let me down in any significant way.
To the Med and back and much more.
Approaching Passo San Gottardo, 70's!
Photographer was a beautiful companion but lacked feel for a camera. :shock:
Image Attachments
image.jpg
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 21 Nov 2020, 9:25pm, edited 3 times in total.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8492
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Nov 2020, 9:13pm

As a counterpoint to my previous racing car post v-a-v abs and automated systems.

https://youtu.be/ridS396W2BY

And

https://youtu.be/vI9EIjUx20I

kwackers
Posts: 15089
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 21 Nov 2020, 9:40pm

Bonefishblues wrote:As a counterpoint to my previous racing car post v-a-v abs and automated systems.

https://youtu.be/ridS396W2BY

And

https://youtu.be/vI9EIjUx20I

Que PDQ telling you it's unnecessary complexity and a decent driver would be as good if not better.

I wonder just how many extra people would be breathing today if a simple system like automatic braking where a standard feature on all vehicles?
I reckon there's a mother and three kids right here for starters: https://news.sky.com/story/a34-crash-lorry-driver-jailed-for-killing-family-while-on-phone-10639721

Over to PDQ to show me a safety system causing a crash and killing people...

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3869
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Nov 2020, 9:46pm

^
It is impressive.
But, those multiple axles are not really like a car and the advantage of balancing such a system are greater.
Avoiding the jack knife not least amongst them.

I can see the advantage for a dozy driver on the second and later clips.

One could argue the first driver was less than cautious about the school bus.
I guess someone had a word with the child afterwards though it probably wasn't necessary!!

And comparison to a non ABS system is not shown of course.
I would expect more smoke! :shock:

kwackers
Posts: 15089
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 21 Nov 2020, 9:49pm

thirdcrank wrote:I've wondered why anybody would shell out for an expensive autonomous and law-abiding car if it was going to be given the run-around by every boy-racer in a clapped out banger, but that misses the point. In a controlled environment, there's little to stop autonomous vehicles travelling at any speed ie speed limits are for humans. I fancy that that will be their USP. And the legacy technology will be taxed and restricted off the road.

A few reasons it won't happen.

1. People already shell out for autonomous vehicles without worrying about boy racers - the feature on a Tesla is a cool 10k extra.
2. Infra structure costs money and we don't like spending money on it.
3. Systems can already deal with most scenarios involving 3rd parties, another couple of years and they'll cope with all scenarios.
4. Cheapest option is simply to insist car manufacturers simply make the system work.

I think legacy tech will be taxed and restricted but not because it won't work with such systems, but simply because it won't be as safe.
I expect a couple of things. First you won't need a license unless you're wanting to drive an automatic vehicle, younger people these days are less likely to have a license so I think that'll be welcomed. Second, insurance companies will nail your hat on for insurance in a manual vehicle.
A combination of the above means I suspect other than theft you're not going to see many boy racers in old bangers in 20 years time.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3869
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Nov 2020, 10:00pm

kwackers wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:As a counterpoint to my previous racing car post v-a-v abs and automated systems.

https://youtu.be/ridS396W2BY

And

https://youtu.be/vI9EIjUx20I

Que PDQ telling you it's unnecessary complexity and a decent driver would be as good if not better.

I wonder just how many extra people would be breathing today if a simple system like automatic braking where a standard feature on all vehicles?
I reckon there's a mother and three kids right here for starters: https://news.sky.com/story/a34-crash-lorry-driver-jailed-for-killing-family-while-on-phone-10639721

Over to PDQ to show me a safety system causing a crash and killing people...


I am aware that ABS can offer help.
I am not against it a a safety aid.
It is ubiquitous now anyway.

It adds unnecessary complexity for me personally.
I manage perfectly ok without it, just that.


What I have said is that I don't think full driverless automation is achievable.
Nothing here has changed that, if anything it has reinforced that view.

I stated up thread I don't want, cruise control in any form, distance sensors, self dipping lights, rain sensitive wipers, parking aids or cameras.
I don't want a touch screen, or sat nav.
I think they are distractions.

I am a dinosaur but I am very happy.
My driving record stands ok.
And I can fix my vehicle myself.

kwackers
Posts: 15089
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 21 Nov 2020, 10:17pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:I am aware that ABS can offer help.

Who mentioned ABS?

PDQ Mobile wrote:I am not against it a a safety aid.
It is ubiquitous now anyway.

Self driving is just layer after layer of safety aids all piled on top of each other hooked up to some path finding.

Modern safety aids are ubiquitous, you can't get 5* NCAP ratings without them.

PDQ Mobile wrote:It adds unnecessary complexity for me personally.
I manage perfectly ok without it, just that.

Right up to the point that you don't.
Like I said, everyone is a good driver right up until they're not.

Just like you, I am excellent and my record is right up there with the best.
However unlike you I don't presume that there isn't a set of circumstances which could compromise my ability.

Serious accidents are fortunately rare so not having had one isn't a basis for assuming you're a good driver.
I know far too many crap drivers who espouse that opinion.

PDQ Mobile wrote:What I have said is that I don't think full driverless automation is achievable.

Ignoring the fact there are cars out there already managing just fine and every update of Tesla's self driving system brings it one step closer for the masses (next big update due fairly shortly I hear).

You admit to being technically illiterate so what makes you qualified to make that statement?
I'm gonna guess you have no relevant qualifications at all, am I right?
So lets just call your opinion "baseless" and thus irrelevant.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3869
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Nov 2020, 10:47pm

^^ my opinion is just and only that, my opinion.

We shall see if all you predict comes to pass.
I do not see any driverless cars here, indeed what would be the point.

Whether they will save the day in the case of an "set of circumstances that compromise my ability" is unclear.
There are too many variables.(including my ability!)

And it is just those variables that I don't think the automation will always 100% reliably deal with.
It's a bit like human language. You can get a machine to translate a novel but it remains stilted and lacking "insight".
The chip based machine is after all just on or off. There is no middle way.

I have never pretended to be "tech savvy" but my problems on the forum are hardly relavant.
My device is old and others have experienced the same.

I do often know crap quality when I see it though. And much about this brave new world fits that bill ok.
I don't like throwing stuff away after a few years because it has become outdated.
Or in the case of many vehicles their complexity of electronics combined with damp enviroments and time cause failure or unreliability that is no longer economic to repair.
It is all to common. It is about as far from "green" as it gets IMV.
Beware it may come to a vehicle near you.

pwa
Posts: 13367
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby pwa » 22 Nov 2020, 7:49am

PDQ Mobile wrote:^^ my opinion is just and only that, my opinion.

We shall see if all you predict comes to pass.
I do not see any driverless cars here, indeed what would be the point.

Whether they will save the day in the case of an "set of circumstances that compromise my ability" is unclear.
There are too many variables.(including my ability!)

And it is just those variables that I don't think the automation will always 100% reliably deal with.
It's a bit like human language. You can get a machine to translate a novel but it remains stilted and lacking "insight".
The chip based machine is after all just on or off. There is no middle way.

I have never pretended to be "tech savvy" but my problems on the forum are hardly relavant.
My device is old and others have experienced the same.

I do often know crap quality when I see it though. And much about this brave new world fits that bill ok.
I don't like throwing stuff away after a few years because it has become outdated.
Or in the case of many vehicles their complexity of electronics combined with damp enviroments and time cause failure or unreliability that is no longer economic to repair.
It is all to common. It is about as far from "green" as it gets IMV.
Beware it may come to a vehicle near you.

I can fully understand why you wouldn't trust any self-driving car that rolled off the production line today or next year. I wouldn't either. But ten years from now? This stuff is developing very quickly and in a decade it will be a generation or two ahead of where it is now. And it may well be more reliable than a human driver by that point. We all know that humans don't make perfect central control systems for cars. To say that they will never be bettered is almost certainly wrong. The real question is when that point will come. That Porsche upthread was being mis-driven by a human. The faulty software was between the ears of the driver. I have seen the same happen with much simpler cars. I don't share your high regard for the human as a car control system. I think it will almost certainly be outperformed for safety and reliability one day, and that day is not too far away.

tim-b
Posts: 1658
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby tim-b » 22 Nov 2020, 8:19am

Hi
I am aware that ABS can offer help.
I am not against it a a safety aid.
It is ubiquitous now anyway.

It adds unnecessary complexity for me personally.
I manage perfectly ok without it, just that.

ABS has been around for a hundred years and in use commercially for around seventy so the tech has matured. If you ever fly on an airliner then you'll be grateful for it because it reduces braking distances on landing in poor weather and reduces the likelihood of burst tyres on any landing. If you never fly then you'll manage perfectly ok without it, however, you might be a driving deity but others aren't so good on the roads and it'll give you an edge there too
As for reliability/complexity my wife's last car gave 14 years service before it was traded and the ABS never missed a beat, unlike the brake discs and pads, assorted brake pipes, etc, all of which are most definitely necessary :D
ABS has its problems and can result in longer stopping distances on loose surfaces such as fresh snow, Audi fitted an on/off switch in the 1990s for that reason, so just drive more slowly for the three days a year that this is an issue in the UK
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

tim-b
Posts: 1658
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby tim-b » 22 Nov 2020, 8:22am

Hi
Thirdcrank mentioned a vehicle transport system, which I think is important. There are preparations/trials of autonomous goods vehicles underway on motorways,
"A maximum of three trucks will travel at around half a second apart, while the platoon will be able to adjust to different road and weather conditions and to allow people coming on and off the motorway. To achieve greatest benefit, the platoon will need to be able to travel reasonable distances, at speed and in free-flowing traffic.

“This is all about aerodynamics of the vehicles so fuel economy and reduced emissions is a key benefit. We’ve heard claims of 5, 10, even up to 30% but no-one has done it in live traffic,” Wallis said.

He added: “The UK has an unprecedented opportunity to take the lead in trialling platoons. No-one else is doing live trials; it’s world first.”"
( https://www.commercialfleet.org/news/truck-news/2018/09/17/inrix-reveals-best-roads-for-autonomous-truck-trials )

The point is that it's a system, one potential issue is that the different manufacturers need to use the same system design protocols, and that's before you get as far as thinking about infra-structure systems
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~