Route 74 has gone

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Psamathe
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote: 12 Oct 2021, 4:44pm IMO, all it really shows is the folly of outsourcing the NCN in the first place. However you look at, a quarter of a century on from the NCS, the NCN is a disjointed mess.
The trouble is, would it be run better by a Gov. department? Or passed to County Council Highways Depts (and my experience of Norfolk Highways is to hand them responsibility for cycle network and it would all be closed down in days - either that or made unridable). I know little about Sustrans so not supporting them but wondering if alternatives might be worse.

Ian
Pete Owens
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Pete Owens »

Indeed so,

Imagine at about the same time, rather than set up the Highways Agency they had bunged a few million to the 4x4 enthusiasts club to create a national car network, consisting of sections of farm track and green lanes - and they then set about removing the signs from truck roads and Motorways.
Pete Owens
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Pete Owens »

Paulatic wrote: 12 Oct 2021, 4:36pm @ Pete Owens The section in your first link will still be signed 74 as it’s away from traffic.
I presume the 74 sign in your second link has now been taped over.
If there is one thing dafter than removing the signage from a route it is selectively removing signs from parts of that route.
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Tinnishill
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Tinnishill »

by Paulatic »
Taped out 74
Is this happening the entire route?
I was over Beattock today. The 74 signs have been taped out from the south end of Beattock village to Kirtlebridge. I turned north then, away from NCN74, so can't report on them through Gretna. The junction at Douglas that Pete O linked to has a little 74 sticker wrapped round a pole, then the signs are as normal until the A702/B7076 junction. Or at least they were today.

We were in Pitlochry a couple of weeks ago and noticed that NCN route number indicators round there have been obscured with stickers advertising some sort of guided route that we had never heard of; "lochs and dungeons route", or some such. We were looking for NCN7 leading to NCN77.
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Pete Owens
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Pete Owens »

And that is another example where a main road (in this case the A9) has been replaced by a new one, leaving the old as a wide, smooth, almost traffic free strip of tarmac for the enjoyment of cyclists.
thirdcrank
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by thirdcrank »

Psamathe wrote: 12 Oct 2021, 5:08pm The trouble is, would it be run better by a Gov. department? Or passed to County Council Highways Depts (and my experience of Norfolk Highways is to hand them responsibility for cycle network and it would all be closed down in days - either that or made unridable). I know little about Sustrans so not supporting them but wondering if alternatives might be worse.

Ian
It depends how the responsibility is devolved. As it is, New Labour swept to power on all sorts of policies later downgraded "aspirations."

In the event, this particular aspiration was handed over entirely to a well-organised bunch who offered Tony Blair etc an alibi. The answer would have been to come up with a system which motivated the senior local highwaymen to get this right. But Tony Blair was only interested in Tony Blair's legacy, which is why he left so much to John - Two Jags - Prescott.
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gaz
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by gaz »

Paulatic wrote: 11 Oct 2021, 9:05pmImage
Noticed this morning all of the route number signs have been taped over in my Lockerbie-Moffat section.
Whilst I've no doubt that this is an example of NCN declassification, I'd suggest that strip of reflective tape is local authority grade rather than Sustrans volunteer issue.
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Paulatic
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Paulatic »

gaz wrote: 13 Oct 2021, 10:46pm
Paulatic wrote: 11 Oct 2021, 9:05pmImage
Noticed this morning all of the route number signs have been taped over in my Lockerbie-Moffat section.
Whilst I've no doubt that this is an example of NCN declassification, I'd suggest that strip of reflective tape is local authority grade rather than Sustrans volunteer issue.
You are probably right with that observation as it is LA who maintain it. I’ve met Sustrans volunteers doing a survey once and they had come down from the central belt. I don’t know that there are any locally.
I’ve had this response from Sustrans Scotland The route is still signed, its just not promoted as an NCN route anymore, so route users will still be able to follow the route. The only change is that the red route number patch is covered over but the signs are all still in place. We’ve done this on quite a few routes now
Nothing at all yet from LA.
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prestavalve
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by prestavalve »

I find myself on the wrong side of the cycling culture wars apparently: I simply don't feel micro-agressed by being forced to ride outside a protected safespace.

It's clear to me now, every time I stuff my pendulous ego into a pair of lycra bibshorts I set the cause back another day. A retrograde specimen of SIS fuelled hyper aero masculinity who, with each pedal stroke, reinforces the stereotype that cycling is not for people who are afraid of bikes, or roads, or derailleur mechanisms. Brothers dismount! Let us sit upon the roadside and whine! For only by doing this, shall we usher in a new Elysium of step through frames with little wicker baskets full of organic quinoa and cruelty free almond milk being wobbled about along pavements. Say it with me now, "a battery on every bike!"
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mjr
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by mjr »

prestavalve wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 8:12am I find myself on the wrong side of the cycling culture wars apparently: I simply don't feel micro-agressed by being forced to ride outside a protected safespace.
Moderator edit removed an admittedly-abrupt comment from this post. I still want to convey how I completely and utterly disagree with linking this to the culture wars and suggesting that buying organic food, being lactose-intolerant or using e-bikes or baskets is correlated with being comfortable on motorist-favouring roads. Even linking balance problems to it is dodgy. That seems like just trying to pick a political or ableist fight with the greener-minded and disabled people on here, maybe because Sustrans won't reply directly.

Sustrans's basic aim in this is good: a cycle route network without riding among heavy levels of fast motor traffic. They do not require protected space but it is one way to deliver it.

I think their method sucks: abruptly deleting large chunks of the network without warning the highway authorities affected what's needed to fix them. As a result, Sustrans no longer has a route network. What's left seems even less complete than the National Byway or National Trails.

Giving all off road sections a pass just makes it ridiculous. A mile of back road deleted because it leads to an A road, but a mile of unrideable wet sand proudly displays NCN signs and mileposts still? Absurd.

Maybe I'm wrong and government will now rush to fill in the gaps but I doubt it. Meanwhile, cyclists don't even get an indication of the least worst linking roads.
Last edited by mjr on 14 Oct 2021, 11:48am, edited 1 time in total.
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Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

mjr wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 9:16amSustrans's basic aim in this is good: a cycle route network without riding among heavy levels of fast motor traffic. They do not require protected space but it is one way to deliver it.
Yep, fully agree.
I think their method sucks: abruptly deleting large chunks of the network without warning the highway authorities affected what's needed to fix them. As a result, Sustrans no longer has a route network. What's left seems even less complete than the National Byway or National Trails.
This bit of NCN 74 is quite an interesting case. The original route isn't, as far as I can tell, very NCN-like - fast traffic and quite a lot of it, even despite the motorway running alongside. It seems an odd candidate ever to have been designated as an NCN route.

But there is a parallel route, the Caledonian Cycleway aka Regional Route 10. It goes south from Moffat to join NCN 7 at Dumfries, and is expressly signposted as a 7-74 link. I'm not quite sure why it doesn't appear on the online NCN map, or indeed why it hasn't been redesignated NCN 74.
Giving all off road sections a pass just makes it ridiculous. A mile of back road deleted because it leads to an A road, but a mile of unrideable wet sand proudly displays NCN signs and mileposts still? Absurd.
It's a pass for now, I think - generally the unrideable off-road sections are being treated as "we can and should fix this", rather than "we're accepting this as fine in perpetuity". I would expect to see many of them either fixed or removed in the next few years. One or two have already gone, though I agree there are a couple that haven't and should have!
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Ellieb
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Ellieb »

been replaced by a new one, leaving the old as a wide, smooth, almost traffic free strip of tarmac for the enjoyment of cyclists
I take it you aren’t referring to the Lockerbie-Moffat route. Whilst it is a lot less busy than the M74 it’s hardly traffic free & the surface is rougher than a badger‘s backside. It isn’t terribly pleasant to ride on.
prestavalve
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by prestavalve »

I only post such nonsense because:
mjr wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 9:16am [...]it ridiculous[..]
Keeping off road sections by default, regardless of whether they are rideable, let alone fast and convenient, whilst removing lots of on-road sections speaks volumes about where you think bikes should be and what they are for.

I would love it if on-road sections of the NCN appeared on road signs: that would alter perceptions.
Pete Owens
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Pete Owens »

Pete Owens wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 11:46am
Ellieb wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 10:14am
been replaced by a new one, leaving the old as a wide, smooth, almost traffic free strip of tarmac for the enjoyment of cyclists
I take it you aren’t referring to the Lockerbie-Moffat route.
The first half of the sentence:

"And that is another example where a main road (in this case the A9)has been replaced by a new one, ...."

Now the former A74 carriageway may not be smooth by highway standards, it is certainly one heck of a lot higher quality most of the routes Sustrans would direct us to.
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mjr
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by mjr »

prestavalve wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 10:21am I only post such nonsense because:
mjr wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 9:16am [...]it ridiculous[..]
Keeping off road sections by default, regardless of whether they are rideable, let alone fast and convenient, whilst removing lots of on-road sections speaks volumes about where you think bikes should be and what they are for.
Doesn't it say more that their decision-making process is a bit faulty? Their statement about where they think bikes should be and what they are for seems fine to me: they think bikes should be in "places with clean air and green spaces" and "the perfect place to walk, cycle and enjoy the outdoors", used for "connecting cities, towns and countryside".

I'd agree if you said that this action doesn't do anything to create more such places and actively disconnects some towns, cities and countryside, but I really disagree with insulting green political views and the disabled. In short, what have they got to do with it?
I would love it if on-road sections of the NCN appeared on road signs: that would alter perceptions.
Some did. It didn't seem to help any. Highways departments still seemed to forget about them and messed them up during redesigns.
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