Being rear ended

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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mjr
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Re: Being rear ended

Postby mjr » 10 Oct 2015, 8:31am

horizon wrote:But you don't know how wide they're going to overtake without looking round, which you don't really want to do at that point. I can only reiterate - this is my personal experience and people deal with these situations differently.

Yes I do want to look round then! Hopefully the driver will notice that I have a face and I am human and not a vehicle he can pass close.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Heltor Chasca
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Re: Being rear ended

Postby Heltor Chasca » 10 Oct 2015, 9:17am

I drive a pickup with a trailer so mirrors are my friends. When I rode motorcycles they were an important part of my safety, particularly as I was often pulling out to overtake. I don't know why moped riders remove theirs. Fashion?

However I'm yet to be sold on their use on a pushbike. I use my swivelling neck and beady eyes for any manoeuvres where I need to look behind. I'm not closing the doors on their use, I just need more convincing than the 'helmetish' statements like, 'I swear, if it hadn't been for my mirrors...'

Enter stage left: Mirror sub-forum...b

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horizon
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Re: Being rear ended

Postby horizon » 10 Oct 2015, 10:11am

Heltor Chasca wrote:I just need more convincing than the 'helmetish' statements like, 'I swear, if it hadn't been for my mirrors...'



Just to reiterate what I said above: IME a mirror doesn't save you. It allows you to be more aware of what's happening around you and thus adjust your road position or simply enjoy a relaxed ride. Unless someone embraces these ideas then persuading them to use a mirror is a hopeless cause - they have to really try it.

And in any case, other people have their preferred way of riding: I prefer to use a mirror, others to look, others not even to look but just hope for the best.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

axel_knutt
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Re: Being rear ended

Postby axel_knutt » 10 Oct 2015, 11:19am

horizon wrote:But you don't know how wide they're going to overtake without looking round, which you don't really want to do at that point. I can only reiterate - this is my personal experience and people deal with these situations differently.


Hmm, not so sure. On one occasion I was riding on the crown of the road, within the last second of turning right into the top of my estate. It was my ears that told me the car behind was overtaking me on the right instead of the left. (Overtaking me on the left would have involved slowing down and changing gear, and her left hand was busy holding a mobile phone.)
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

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horizon
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Re: Being rear ended

Postby horizon » 10 Oct 2015, 12:43pm

Heltor Chasca wrote: I use my swivelling neck and beady eyes for any manoeuvres where I need to look behind.



I'm not going to try to convince you but I would suggest that it's worth looking round much more than just when you need to manouvre. Since that would be onerous, a mirror would be ideal.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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Heltor Chasca
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Being rear ended

Postby Heltor Chasca » 10 Oct 2015, 3:02pm

horizon wrote:
Heltor Chasca wrote: I use my swivelling neck and beady eyes for any manoeuvres where I need to look behind.



I'm not going to try to convince you but I would suggest that it's worth looking round much more than just when you need to manouvre. Since that would be onerous, a mirror would be ideal.


Point taken. I'm certainly not arguing for the sake of it. I like your reflection on the whole subject. I'll get my boat. I love these English sayings on forums!
Last edited by Heltor Chasca on 10 Oct 2015, 3:08pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Heltor Chasca
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Re: Being rear ended

Postby Heltor Chasca » 10 Oct 2015, 3:07pm

horizon wrote:
Heltor Chasca wrote:I just need more convincing than the 'helmetish' statements like, 'I swear, if it hadn't been for my mirrors...'



Just to reiterate what I said above: IME a mirror doesn't save you. It allows you to be more aware of what's happening around you and thus adjust your road position or simply enjoy a relaxed ride. Unless someone embraces these ideas then persuading them to use a mirror is a hopeless cause - they have to really try it.

And in any case, other people have their preferred way of riding: I prefer to use a mirror, others to look, others not even to look but just hope for the best.


I have an open mind on the matter. What mirror works on drop bars with bar end shifters out of interest? How does it fit? I wouldn't want anything sticking out or anything that is an eyesore. Simplicity is key in any design I like. I'm very tidy (apart from my hair and beard) I couldn't deal with vibration or constantly needing to adjust a moving mirror. My gps holder in my truck does this and it drives me potty...b

Two_Trooper
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Re: Being rear ended

Postby Two_Trooper » 11 Oct 2015, 1:52pm

mjr wrote:
iviehoff wrote:I use always-on lights in London, though I only use super-bright lights at night.

That sounds backwards: don't you need less light at night?

I feel dazzling super-bright lights are a bad idea. People say things like this (actual quote from another site): "If I get stuck behind someone with one, I have to look away, or try harder to get past, or deliberately slow down to let them get some distance" and do you really want motorists avoiding looking at you or trying harder to get past?


I have a fly6 (HD) for this reason, i was hit -rear ended in 92 by a car driver and ended up in hospital for a few weeks. Its only now that the technology has made an impact- excuse the pun to have HD quality video camera with a really good lighting. Everyone cyclist (at work)has mention how good the tech is and are shocked at the quality of the video. its a bit pricey but, it gives you a piece of mind that if you are shunted you have a video of it.

Just on the note of rear ended collisions I am a driver and always have my foot on the brake when stopped at lights, no hand brake, its the safest if you do get hit, cars in gear and the smash happens, you stall and also your brakes on. When they teach you to stop and apply the hand brake is really not a good idea for this very reason.

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Re: Being rear ended

Postby mjr » 11 Oct 2015, 3:50pm

Two_Trooper wrote:Just on the note of rear ended collisions I am a driver and always have my foot on the brake when stopped at lights, no hand brake, its the safest if you do get hit, cars in gear and the smash happens, you stall and also your brakes on. When they teach you to stop and apply the hand brake is really not a good idea for this very reason.

Except that when you get shunted, your foot can easily come off the brake pedal, then the car's in gear and could easily drive forwards rather than stall. That's why they teach you to take it out of gear and lock the handbrake on. That's also when modern cars autostop their engines.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Being rear ended

Postby Two_Trooper » 11 Oct 2015, 6:15pm

mjr wrote:
Two_Trooper wrote:Just on the note of rear ended collisions I am a driver and always have my foot on the brake when stopped at lights, no hand brake, its the safest if you do get hit, cars in gear and the smash happens, you stall and also your brakes on. When they teach you to stop and apply the hand brake is really not a good idea for this very reason.

Except that when you get shunted, your foot can easily come off the brake pedal, then the car's in gear and could easily drive forwards rather than stall. That's why they teach you to take it out of gear and lock the handbrake on. That's also when modern cars autostop their engines.


The car stalls, i am taking about manual gear, not the automatic, its not really diving.LOL. your foot, is not on the accelerator and if you do have a rear shunt, the cars gears will stop you moving to forward, its like gear braking. I cannot say about the auto-stop motors. If you stop and put the handbrake on your doing it wrong, I know that they teach you that, but its not the safest way, the stoping in gear (manual) with the feet on the clutch and brake, if you do get hit (unless its a really fast car, you car will leave the road, physically lift of the road) the car will stall. Try it, start the car, then put it in gear, then remove both feet from the pedals.

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Re: Being rear ended

Postby pwa » 11 Oct 2015, 8:19pm

When being taught the fine points of minibus driving by an instructor who had previously taught police officers how to drive in pursuit situations, I was told to use the hand brake whenever I stop at junctions because a rear end nudge can take your foot off the clutch and the combination of the nudge and the action of the engine can push you forward into whatever or whoever is in front. You cannot rely on the engine stalling in time to prevent that.

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Re: Being rear ended

Postby RickH » 11 Oct 2015, 10:54pm

Two_Trooper wrote: Try it, start the car, then put it in gear, then remove both feet from the pedals.

I drove our car quite some distance using only the clutch & brake pedals (plus of course gears & steering) to get it to the garage after the cable to the accelerator went. It was a bit slow off the mark but drove OK on quite hilly terrain. (I also got it to the garage under its own power on another occasion when the clutch went - start the engine in gear to pull away & stall it to stop if I wasn't able to get it out of gear in time.)

Rick.

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Re: Being rear ended

Postby beardy » 11 Oct 2015, 11:35pm

Two_Trooper wrote:
mjr wrote:
Two_Trooper wrote:Just on the note of rear ended collisions I am a driver and always have my foot on the brake when stopped at lights, no hand brake, its the safest if you do get hit, cars in gear and the smash happens, you stall and also your brakes on. When they teach you to stop and apply the hand brake is really not a good idea for this very reason.

Except that when you get shunted, your foot can easily come off the brake pedal, then the car's in gear and could easily drive forwards rather than stall. That's why they teach you to take it out of gear and lock the handbrake on. That's also when modern cars autostop their engines.


The car stalls, i am taking about manual gear, not the automatic, its not really diving.LOL. your foot, is not on the accelerator and if you do have a rear shunt, the cars gears will stop you moving to forward, its like gear braking. I cannot say about the auto-stop motors. If you stop and put the handbrake on your doing it wrong, I know that they teach you that, but its not the safest way, the stoping in gear (manual) with the feet on the clutch and brake, if you do get hit (unless its a really fast car, you car will leave the road, physically lift of the road) the car will stall. Try it, start the car, then put it in gear, then remove both feet from the pedals.


You are forgetting about the clutch thrust bearings and their lifespan, getting to them is a major job on many machines. My car can pull off without the accelerator pedal being depressed as its "brain" will do that for me. I doubt that it could cope with me lifting the clutch sharply, unless the car was already moving a bit like it might be after a rear end shunt. If I was knocked unconscious at the same time, the car would accelerate up to above the minimum speed for that gear. It will get to twenty mph without the accelerator in second gear.
Finally if I am going to get rear ended, I dont want to stop the car that is hitting me too quickly.
The handbrake will let my car move quite a bit further than the front disc brakes would, which lessens the force of the impact.
Also hillstarts are very challenging without the use of a handbrake.

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Re: Being rear ended

Postby Flinders » 12 Oct 2015, 9:55am

beardy wrote:Finally if I am going to get rear ended, I dont want to stop the car that is hitting me too quickly.
The handbrake will let my car move quite a bit further than the front disc brakes would, which lessens the force of the impact.
Also hillstarts are very challenging without the use of a handbrake.


You are missing the point about the handbrake. The point isn't to stop damage to your car, it is to protect other people in front of you. If you are, say, stationary at a junction or lights, and have the handbrake on rather than the footbrake, your car may well suffer more damage. Few people would react fast enough to use the footbrake, and in many cases the impact would cause your foot to come off it anyway. But if you don't have it on, you will move (or move more,depending on the force of the impact) forwards, pushing you into the car in front or the pedestrian crossing in front of you, or into the traffic crossing the junction. Or may push a car or cars further forward and cause them to do that.

I've been rear ended when stopped at red lights, I had the brake on, and though my car was damaged, no other cars or humans were. Which I think is the right result.

In a car, a mirror could help avoid a rear-end if the road in front was clear and you could speed up to give the idiot behind more time to slow down, but on the bike I for one can't suddenly speed up enough to help. And judging speed of oncoming traffic in a mirror is much more difficult on a bike mirror than on car mirrors.
I do think it's worth having a mirror on the bike if you have somewhere to put one, but you do need to be aware of their shortcomings.

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Re: Being rear ended

Postby mjr » 12 Oct 2015, 10:56am

Two_Trooper wrote:Try it, start the car, then put it in gear, then remove both feet from the pedals.

Leaving aside that being shunted means the car is already moving, I'm not sure that works consistently. Our old Rover would quite happily drive forwards, not stall. The Punto would stall, but then it stalled if you looked at it funny while pulling away. I've not tried it on the Alfa, but I would expect it to stall and then the auto-restart will kick in (which surprised me the first time I stalled it) and it'll drive forwards a bit.

beardy wrote:Also hillstarts are very challenging without the use of a handbrake.

Not always now - Hill-Holder keeps the Alfa's footbrake on for a few seconds after the footbrake is released, until the car starts moving forwards :) http://www.alfaromeo.co.uk/uk/models/mito/technology
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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