Ignoring the banksman

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
pwa
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Ignoring the banksman

Post by pwa »

On my way back from doing an errand this morning I was stopped by a banksman (apologies for gender bias of the word for a person in hi-viz stopping traffic) who was there to halt the traffic for a minute or so while an unsafe branch was felled across the road. Coming the other way was a man on a race bike, hands on drops and going for it. The banksman had his hand up to tell him to stop, and I think he was talking to him, but the cyclist just ignored him and went very close to the kerb to get round him. The banksman put his palms up towards the sky in a shrug gesture, just as the branch came down. The leafy tips brushed the back of the cyclist. What an idiot!

I've done the banksman job in the past and it can be difficult. Why some people cannot grasp that the banksman is there to protect them I don't know.
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meic
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by meic »

Because often these banksmen are self appointed idiots with no understanding of the law.

I remember struggling uphill with the bike trailer behind and stopping for such a man who then waved the vehicle from behind me to go through, another trucker like himself. There are appointed, legally sanctioned marshals, there are Police, traffic wardens and lollipopmen who have rights to direct traffic and there are just members of the public (even if they do wear a hi-viz).

I have some trees that need to come down and I either have to drop them out of the public's way or I have to get a temporary road closure permit from the council and stick up signs in advance etcetc.
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pwa
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by pwa »

meic wrote:Because often these banksmen are self appointed idiots with no understanding of the law.

I remember struggling uphill with the bike trailer behind and stopping for such a man who then waved the vehicle from behind me to go through, another trucker like himself. There are appointed, legally sanctioned marshals, there are Police, traffic wardens and lollipopmen who have rights to direct traffic and there are just members of the public.

I have some trees that need to come down and I either have to drop them out of the public's way or I have to get a temporary road closure permit from the council and stick up signs in advance etcetc.


This case was pretty simple, Meic. Flat road, tree branch probably already partly cut through by the man with the chainsaw, minor inconvenience for the cyclist to stop, and the felling looked professional with plenty of cones around the vehicle and signage down the road. Surely anyone with half a brain can understand why it would be wisest to wait a moment if a man in hi-viz asks you to do so. If you are concerned about it you can ask to see his documentation later. I do not know whether this felling was preceded by notices. Maybe not if it was an emergency brought on by bad weather. I don't think this cyclist would have stopped to read notices anyway.

I used to look after a shared use cycle track and one of my jobs was to visit it after storms and deal with any tree problems that might pose a danger to the public. I took a banksman to help make things safe for everyone. I never knew where I might find a tree that needed felling before it fell on someone, so I had no specific documentation to close the track. When I found a hazardous branch or tree I put signs up either side and positioned the banksman to ask people to wait a moment until the branch came down. Once the chainsaw started I could not hear the banksman and my primary focus was on the cut, so safety relied on the banksman and the cooperation of the public. And you reach a point when felling a tree when the cut has gone so far that the tree is begining to lean over and may snap at any moment. If someone tries to pass at that moment there is no way of stopping it. So the cooperation of the public is needed.
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meic
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by meic »

I was giving a reason why people may choose to ignore Banksmen, in my case I have been subject to idiots abusing their "power" so I am a little quicker now to self-asses and ignore their "advice".

I do see it from both sides and after winds like we just had I could have been out on the A485 trying to clear up and make safe one of my trees broken by the wind. I dont have any signs, bollards etc and I would only have a banksman, if some neighbour saw me in trouble and came out to help.
Or about two months ago when a car rolled outside my house and I was first on scene, I left phoning and traffic control to others while I dealt with smoking overturned car and damaged occupant, I was aware that there were cars squeezing past me instead of waiting like they would have to do when the Police arrived. Though I was too busy to pay them any attention.

I think there was an unofficial road closure for tree work on the Wesley May this year, involving a considerable detour with many extra hills. Many of the riders acquiesced to this even after trying to negotiate passage through within a half hour period or so of waiting. Yet I believe that one insisted on his right to proceed (in the absence of a TRO) after having waited a reasonable amount of time.
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Psamathe
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by Psamathe »

pwa wrote:On my way back from doing an errand this morning I was stopped by a banksman (apologies for gender bias of the word for a person in hi-viz stopping traffic) who was there to halt the traffic for a minute or so while an unsafe branch was felled across the road. Coming the other way was a man on a race bike, hands on drops and going for it. The banksman had his hand up to tell him to stop, and I think he was talking to him, but the cyclist just ignored him and went very close to the kerb to get round him. The banksman put his palms up towards the sky in a shrug gesture, just as the branch came down. The leafy tips brushed the back of the cyclist. What an idiot!...

Without being there I can only guess but I doubt the "incident" had anything to do with the banksman or what was happening and is an illustration as to the general attitude that gives cyclists a bad reputation in the eyes of the general public. The rider who considers that what they are doing is so important they take absolute priority over everything else on the roads. The sense of ownership and that everybody else is just not relevant due to the importance of their activity.

It's a shame because they'd be straight in there with claims and accusations had the branch damaged their bike.

Every activity has a range of participants and you will always get the bad eggs. I've seen it with joggers who consider their run so important that when the come to cross the road they just stick their hand out and run across causing cars to do emergency stops. I think that with cyclists that such people are getting everybody tarred with the same brush, and that will affect other road users attitudes, how much consideration cycling gets in new developments and cycling budgets, etc.

Ian
beardy
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by beardy »

Psamathe wrote:
pwa wrote:On my way back from doing an errand this morning I was stopped by a banksman (apologies for gender bias of the word for a person in hi-viz stopping traffic) who was there to halt the traffic for a minute or so while an unsafe branch was felled across the road. Coming the other way was a man on a race bike, hands on drops and going for it. The banksman had his hand up to tell him to stop, and I think he was talking to him, but the cyclist just ignored him and went very close to the kerb to get round him. The banksman put his palms up towards the sky in a shrug gesture, just as the branch came down. The leafy tips brushed the back of the cyclist. What an idiot!...

Without being there I can only guess but I doubt the "incident" had anything to do with the banksman or what was happening and is an illustration as to the general attitude that gives cyclists a bad reputation in the eyes of the general public. The rider who considers that what they are doing is so important they take absolute priority over everything else on the roads. The sense of ownership and that everybody else is just not relevant due to the importance of their activity.

It's a shame because they'd be straight in there with claims and accusations had the branch damaged their bike.

Every activity has a range of participants and you will always get the bad eggs. I've seen it with joggers who consider their run so important that when the come to cross the road they just stick their hand out and run across causing cars to do emergency stops. I think that with cyclists that such people are getting everybody tarred with the same brush, and that will affect other road users attitudes, how much consideration cycling gets in new developments and cycling budgets, etc.

Ian

Odd that even a cyclist will pick on cyclists specifically when they act no differently from the rest of the public, just because they are cyclists. It is quite common for even ambulance and fire crews to be unable to prevent car drivers from proceeding through an emergency scene without physical barriers or a police presence.
pwa
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by pwa »

No, Beardy, in this case the cars were all stopped and waiting patiently (there were only about three of us in cars) and if I had been on a bike I would have waited. I think most cyclists would have waited. I'm not singling cyclists out, particularly. Just idiots.
beardy
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by beardy »

It wasnt your post which I was quoting (and I had assumed that you were on a bike yourself at the time).

I remember once getting knocked off my motorbike and while lying on the road alongside it, all the cars were driving past, either side of me and when I got up and tried to push it to the side of the traffic roundabout, none would stop to let me through until I pushed the motorcycle into their path forcing them to stop. All in a 30mph limit.
pwa
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by pwa »

beardy wrote:It wasnt your post which I was quoting (and I had assumed that you were on a bike yourself at the time).

I remember once getting knocked off my motorbike and while lying on the road alongside it, all the cars were driving past, either side of me and when I got up and tried to push it to the side of the traffic roundabout, none would stop to let me through until I pushed the motorcycle into their path forcing them to stop. All in a 30mph limit.


I had a different experience when I got nudged by a van and fell heavily. The traffic stopped and the van driver and another motorist helped me get up and seemed concerned about me. I was okay.

To balance out the story of the idiot cyclist, there were at least 40 other club cyclists on that road as I drove home (it is popular) and none were doing anything to be criticised. I would be surprised if any of the cyclists I know well pushed past a banksman with the hazard so plainly in sight. Nobody wants a tree dropped on them.
Phil Fouracre
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by Phil Fouracre »

beardy wrote:
"It wasnt your post which I was quoting (and I had assumed that you were on a bike yourself at the time).

I remember once getting knocked off my motorbike and while lying on the road alongside it, all the cars were driving past, either side of me and when I got up and tried to push it to the side of the traffic roundabout, none would stop to let me through until I pushed the motorcycle into their path forcing them to stop. All in a 30mph limit."

Yup, horribly selfish people around. Had an incident, years ago now, when a motorcyclist had a head on with a car right outside the house. Went to help, and it was a 'bit messy' the guy was alive, but, badly injured, used as much first aid as I could while waiting for emergency services. If there was any upside, I found out that I had impressed the mother in law greatly! I had stopped the traffic as the guy was spread across the centre line, one of the drivers wanted to move him so that they could get past. I got up from helping him, fairly bloody myself, and told the driver no, and to get back in his car unless he wanted a trip in the ambulance as well.
He survived and called in to thank us a few months later.
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pwa
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by pwa »

Phil Fouracre wrote:beardy wrote:
"It wasnt your post which I was quoting (and I had assumed that you were on a bike yourself at the time).

I remember once getting knocked off my motorbike and while lying on the road alongside it, all the cars were driving past, either side of me and when I got up and tried to push it to the side of the traffic roundabout, none would stop to let me through until I pushed the motorcycle into their path forcing them to stop. All in a 30mph limit."

Yup, horribly selfish people around. Had an incident, years ago now, when a motorcyclist had a head on with a car right outside the house. Went to help, and it was a 'bit messy' the guy was alive, but, badly injured, used as much first aid as I could while waiting for emergency services. If there was any upside, I found out that I had impressed the mother in law greatly! I had stopped the traffic as the guy was spread across the centre line, one of the drivers wanted to move him so that they could get past. I got up from helping him, fairly bloody myself, and told the driver no, and to get back in his car unless he wanted a trip in the ambulance as well.
He survived and called in to thank us a few months later.


Some people have strange priorities!
Flinders
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by Flinders »

Phil Fouracre wrote:................... one of the drivers wanted to move him so that they could get past. I got up from helping him, fairly bloody myself, and told the driver no, and to get back in his car unless he wanted a trip in the ambulance as well.
.....................


I'd like to be able to say 'unbelievable' but unfortunately it isn't. We certainly need more people like you and fewer like him.

A photographer friend was assisting a vet who was having to PTS a badly injured horse because the rider was too distressed to help when a spectator actually tried to film it. My friend (who is over 6' tall and well built) stood up and had a few of the proverbial Quiet Words with the person, and then the man decided he really didn't want to film it after all for some reason..............

Some people have no sense of priority or common decency. :evil:
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by Vorpal »

pwa wrote:On my way back from doing an errand this morning I was stopped by a banksman (apologies for gender bias of the word for a person in hi-viz stopping traffic) who was there to halt the traffic for a minute or so while an unsafe branch was felled across the road. Coming the other way was a man on a race bike, hands on drops and going for it. The banksman had his hand up to tell him to stop, and I think he was talking to him, but the cyclist just ignored him and went very close to the kerb to get round him. The banksman put his palms up towards the sky in a shrug gesture, just as the branch came down. The leafy tips brushed the back of the cyclist. What an idiot!

I've done the banksman job in the past and it can be difficult. Why some people cannot grasp that the banksman is there to protect them I don't know.

Firstly, a banksperson must have training and authorisation to stop traffic, in which case, they will have police or highways authority signs or notices. If these things are lacking, there is no legal obligation to stop for them.

Secondly, the drop zone should have been cordoned off or barricaded. If the cyclist had been injured or killed, the company doing the felling would have been held liable, despite the actions of the cyclist.
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Flinders
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by Flinders »

Whatever the legal position, I'd stop if anyone was signalling me to stop so that I could at least find out what it was about and assess the risk.

Recently there was a car accident near here. We drove past shortly after the event- a member of the public had grabbed a high-viz jacket and was waving people down, warning people as it was just beyond a bad bend. We slowed down and drove safely past.
Some idiot a few minutes later didn't, and the ambulance and its staff which had just arrived got a near miss.

There will always be times before emergency services arrive, and/or before they can put out bollards etc., when a bit of common sense goes a long way. There can also be an obstruction that has fallen or is about to fall into the road and which local people are dealing with as best they can - especially when it now takes the police a long time to get to some places, or they just refuse to come out*.

*We had a cow loose on the road here- two members of the public on their way to work had stopped to drive it off the road and were trying to keep it there, warning traffic. They rang the police who first said they would come out, then when nothing happened, the police were called again and said they would not come out as they had no people in the area (just after a patrol car had gone past, no blue lights, in no apparent hurry). The two men needed to get to work and the police had just left them to deal with it. As locals we rang round everywhere until we found whose cow it was and they came to pick it up. In the meantime, there were no official warnings or barriers, and we couldn't have stopped the cow getting back onto the road if it had decided to as none of us were cattle handlers.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Ignoring the banksman

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Unless of course you suspect South African tactics - stop you then attack you...
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